where can i find a clean keygen-nowhere! Discussion......

Discussion in 'Windows 7' started by adcx64, Dec 15, 2009.

  1. heliosys

    heliosys MDL Novice

    Jul 12, 2009
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    Explain how did thinkpad icons in Device and Printers change? I have not install anything from Lenovo and it was not even activated.

    I agree it's economics, crack down on bios mod is inevitable, with the availability of convenient tools,and moders who will mod at request, it's only accelerating that crack down.
     
  2. PAYMYRENT

    PAYMYRENT MDL Developer

    Jul 28, 2009
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    they already look at the acpi tables with the mgadiag tool :p

    this comes from a hex editor:
     

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  3. vladxed666

    vladxed666 MDL Senior Member

    Sep 19, 2009
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    1. By Reading it off the Mobo... Since its burned onto your mobo
    2. Using Lenovo SLIC Table...
    3. System Manufacturer Info
     
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  4. heliosys

    heliosys MDL Novice

    Jul 12, 2009
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    With all this information can they lock off bios mod without affecting legitimate user?

    Microsoft, are at a difficult position, they can't push too hard for legitimate windows, without the fear that people migrating to free OS, Linux, BSD,etc..., or ignoring piracy, where they are not getting paid. The icon on my thinkpad is a proof, they have database of motherboard, if they were to use it, it's the end for current bios mod, the real question is when will they use it. Clearly they have to do something about piracy and not forcing OS migration, if i were them, i would go for the most popular hack, maybe a loader, and leave the rest alone, some affected user will move on to legitimate, while other migrate to different hack, I believe the reason why bios mod was not hit, because it's not common, thus if bios mod became popular, you will see a crack down, it's not impossible to lock it, without causing outrage on legitimate users.
     
  5. vladxed666

    vladxed666 MDL Senior Member

    Sep 19, 2009
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    but the question is how will they know its a bios mod if its professionally done..
     
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  6. HotCarl

    HotCarl MDL Addicted

    Jul 21, 2009
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    #26 HotCarl, Dec 17, 2009
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2009
    They will know because they will compare the unique hardware IDs of the motherboard to a known database and see when it was manufactured (every piece of hardware in your PC has unique codes that ID the vendor, manufacture date, the type of hardware it is, etc.). If it was manufactured before a certain date then it could not possibly be SLIC 2.1 compliant, regardless of whether it actually contains SLIC 2.1 (if it was modded). This is a very easy way to detect boards that contain a modded BIOS.

    Whether the BIOS mod was "professional" or not does not matter. All that matters is the OS can uniquely ID your mobo... How do you think activation and unique hardware hashes work? Why do you think you can't just copy a pkeyconfig.xrm-ms file and a tokens.dat file from one computer to another and have it activate? Or like when you make a hardware change (like replacing mobo or video cards inside the computer) that it trips up activation? It is because MS is able to use the unique hardware IDs to generate a unique hash based on your internal hardware configuration...and this hash will not match any other computer, thus copying the activation files will fail to activate the other PC because the hardware hashes will not match (or getting back to if you change a major component of your hardware (like the video card or *motherboard*) and activation fails, it is because the hardware hash is significantly different from what it was before the new piece of hardware was installed...and since it no longer matches, activation fails)...

    You can cling to your "bullet-proof" BIOS mod all you want, but you are hiding the truth from yourself...and that is that BIOS mods are almost as easy to detect as loaders. All it takes is a hardware database for comparison and you are on your way to a BIOS mod detection mechanism.

    Trust me, if MS can create Windows 7, they can do something as easy as determine if the system it is running on has a modded BIOS or not...unless you are able to spoof hardware ID numbers...or unless the mobo that was modded was still in production when they made the change to SLIC 2.1 for Windows 7 (...but you were unfortunate to have gotten your PC a month too early and got a SLIC 2.0 BIOS and Vista instead). ;)


    EDIT: I am not trying to be the bringer of doom...lol. I am just stating common sense, and things that can be done easily... If you BIOS modded a machine that is running on a mobo that was manufactured before SLIC 2.1 came out (and the mobo was not still in production when the vendor switched from SLIC 2.0 to 2.1), then it will be a hell of a lot easier to detect. That is the bottom line, and all I'm saying. I'm not saying it *will* happen, only that it is possible...and not very difficult to do.

    EDIT2: How do you think Windows can ID the device you install into your computer and recognize that new hardware was inserted, recognize exactly what it is, and install the driver for it (usually :p) ?
     
  7. nukkelhet

    nukkelhet MDL Novice

    Aug 22, 2009
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    I agree, and next question is : How can this be done ??:)
    For networkcards for example there is something like SMAC or macchanger, which changes the mac of a card to any mac you want...
    Something like that is needed I guess.:confused:
     
  8. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    #28 Yen, Dec 17, 2009
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2009
    The only way to detect biosmods is to read out the bios version which is installed for the particular mainboard and to compare to the original bios and have a look if the original has got a SLIC as well.
    Then you may detect about 80% of the mods. The other 20% of the original bioses contain no complete SLIC. The missing part (marker) will be applied to the EEPROM with marker tools to license the machine. Which machine is officially licensed or not only the OEM knows if it knows at all.
    I have seen bioses with a active SLIC 2.1 already although they are NOT licensed for W7.

    Also there are different methods to code a SLIC into a bios. M$ would have to analyse every official bios to have a look if it's SLICed or not. Or all the OEMs would have to provide the info to M$. This would mean a great effort and a database to be updated every day by every OEM!!!!

    The modding technique is mostly the same. In the technical aspect you cannot detect if it's a biosmod or a official one, except the super static methods, which are used by official bioses very rarely.

    Edit: Forget about unique hardware ID's. To run such a database would mean a huge effort. There are Notebooks, same models but different HDD's, amount of RAM etc..., with and without a SLIC. If M$ would deactivate official machines by accident.......
    The official SLP license allows to change ANY hardware, except the mainboard (bios) of course. I can exchange any hardware of my official licensed machine! The Ids would change as well!!
     
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  9. HSChronic

    HSChronic MDL Expert

    Aug 25, 2007
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    well nobody here is wrong, yes MS could do it. Yes it is probably possible to change hardware IDs and things to match legit ones. Yen however hit the nail on the head. The time and effort required to create this database would be extensive, it would have to be kept up in real time, and you would have to get updates much like an AV program with all the changes they would be making.

    Here is another thing:

    Pre-built OEM systems - They are imaged and cloned MONTHS in advance, so by time HP or whoever reports this new motherboard (OEMs don't keep the same model boards in many of their PCs), the db would not contain the necessary info to validate that install. Also like I said before OEMs don't keep the same motherboards around for new models, so with the rate at which PCs get replaced (about every 2 months or so) by OEMs the database would be huge.

    You want an example, go to HP, Lenovo, Acer, Asus, Dell, and every other royalty OEM and catalog all the computers running Windows 7. Then report those here, the list would be PAGES long. Now think about having to input this... for all boards made TODAY and SLIC 2.1 upgraded hardware... now code that all into a SQL database that you program an update to read (you think people are concerned now about phone home things...), now make WAT (which will have to be updated) read tables in your hardware and compare them to the DB which is too big to reside locally so you need to go online to query it, and then invalidate the computer.

    So this shotgun approach doesn't work because it doesn't get specific enough to not hurt legit people.
     
  10. JesseKnows

    JesseKnows MDL Novice

    May 24, 2009
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    There is a difference between the OS running on your machine observing unique values and making local decisions (like the icon), and the OS sending unique value to look up in some MS database. There was a lot of noise around this when activation first came to the world, and MS took a lot of effort to confirm that the OS does not send identifiable values when it "phones home", only some hash value that proves uniqueness of the hardware.

    As soon as MS started sending motherboard identifiers to its validation servers you'd 1) hear about it and 2) the rest of the computing community (and the EU etc.) will be up in arms. There is a lot of concern in the world (not necessarily US) about MS (==American) control of privacy.
     
  11. HotCarl

    HotCarl MDL Addicted

    Jul 21, 2009
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    #31 HotCarl, Dec 17, 2009
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2009
    No one would care about MS ID'ing the motherboard they're running...rofl. You act like they're grabbing your social security number or birth certificate...

    lol... It is just denial. Of course MS could detect a BIOS mod...or a loader. This thread is silly and pointless. Until MS does something this is just all conjecture...and just as meaningless.

    *If* it happens it will come down, as I said earlier, to pure economics - plain and simple. When MS feels that the profits they are losing to BIOS modders is costing them more or roughly equal the amount of money it would cost to develop a system to detect and mark BIOS modded systems as non-genuine, then MS will develop countermeasures. It is all just business and economics... We are people and can attempt to rationalize things in our minds, somewhat based on emotions & feelings. MS is a business (and because of US laws, must seek a profit for stock-holders, or it would be in violation of US laws as a corporation) and can only rationalize things in terms of economics (making & losing money). When MS feels that BIOS modders are costing them too much lost revenue (money) they will do something about it. You can bet on it. If you think MS will idly sit by as people disable their new OS's built-in protections, you better think twice on the matter... Try to look at things in terms of economics, and put yourself in MS's situation, then it becomes easier to rationalize what a business will do given a certain set of stimuli (in our case, increasing piracy due to BIOS modding).

    EDIT: For the last time, I am not saying MS will do anything, just that it is possible to detect a BIOS mod...because so many people here seem to have the misconception that they are undetectable. I have BIOS modded PCs...I wish that were not the case, and there was a 100% undetectable way to bypass activation. But everything that can be done can be undone...unless you not only spoof the SLIC, but the hardware the PC is running on too.
    All we can do is either hope that they don't do anything (or hope that MS does not deem BIOS modders as much of a thread to profits)...or we can react to what MS does in the future and work around their protections, like we have been doing. :p

    EDIT2: As far as the cost of a database, how much would you pay to protect your multi-million dollar software (or perhaps multi-billion dollar software is more like it)?
    When you discuss how much money ownership and the rights to Windows is worth (which is just mind-boggling), the cost of a hardware database is just a drop in the bucket my friend...it would be un-noticeable in comparison to the net worth of Windows (not even counting future revenues!).
    How much do you think MS could sell the source code for Windows 7 to another corporation for? 1 billion? 10 billion? 100 billion? I don't know, but it would be an astronomical number, Windows is worth a sh!t ton of money (again, not counting any future revenues).

    BTW, the database would not have to contain all mobo's, as not all mobo's are new enough to handle Win7... They just have to make a list of mobo's for the last 5 or 6 years, and only make it check systems that are running SLP keys, so we cut out all the systems running retail keys and OEM:COA keys and whatnot. It would be easier than you think once we narrow the scope of our search to only the PCs that could possibly be BIOS modded (e.g. those running SLP keys) and that are running (an activated) Windows 7...
     
  12. heliosys

    heliosys MDL Novice

    Jul 12, 2009
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    I forget to add, before i connect to the internet, it's the boring icon like everyone else, it work something like your ipod's icons, if you feel that it's a privacy issue, go log at complain at EU, they are doing it now.
     
  13. crazyquay

    crazyquay MDL Novice

    Jul 26, 2009
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    I've seen a number of financial reports that estimate that about 90% of Microsoft's OS revenue is generated via OEM licensing. Add a few more % points for corporate accounts, education and 'valid' retail sales it seems to me that hacked validation doesn't amount to much except when MS wants to talk about in the press. :)
     
  14. HotCarl

    HotCarl MDL Addicted

    Jul 21, 2009
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    #34 HotCarl, Dec 17, 2009
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2009
    I would like to see those reports you speak of. I think 90% is a bit excessive, considering how many computers are out there already in existence. So you are basically claiming that people would rather buy a new PC than upgrade their Windows. I can see that in the past maybe, but with the increase in speed of computers now a days, and the fact that Win7 was built to be able to run on computers that are up to 5 years old (unlike Vista which did require a new computer in many cases to be able to run at full speed with Aero enabled), and the current state of the global economy (not just the US's) I cant agree with you. That may have been true for Vista, but I doubt that will hold true for Win7...
    Remember, this will not pan out like Vista did initially. Many people were required to buy a new computer to run Vista because their old PC couldnt handle it...especially with Aero enabled. MS has done things differently this time, so as to not have to require people to buy a new PC to enjoy Win7. Almost all those people (or maybe all of them) that bought new PCs to handle Viata can now run Windows 7 just fine. There you cannot use past models and data to describe the current situation. That will lead to fail.


    EDIT: There may be more sales attributed to new OEM computers, but nowhere near the 90% you speak of. You are most likely relying on outdated data. Again, I would like to see these statements you speak of. ;)
     
  15. footgay

    footgay MDL Member

    Jun 28, 2009
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    Like it or not, Microsoft will kill softmod first, not hardmod. That's it. And there's no point of you talknig big, HotCarl, just sometime listen to what other people say.
     
  16. HotCarl

    HotCarl MDL Addicted

    Jul 21, 2009
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    #36 HotCarl, Dec 18, 2009
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2009
    Rofl. I am not "talknig big", or whatever that means, and I am not arguing over which will be killed off first. Read the comments and the entire thread first before spouting ignorance please. :)

    They will both probably be marked as non-genuine at some point. I never said otherwise, nor did I say when. I only said it was possible to detect BIOS mods. ;) Then attempted to explain how, then attempted to explain why past models cannot be used to describe current trends and situations. I am not trying to tout loaders are better than BIOS mods...rofl. If you dont like facts then go color, or finger paint, or something...but running your mouth about something you clearly know nothing about makes you look ignorant my friend.
     
  17. footgay

    footgay MDL Member

    Jun 28, 2009
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    Well, one doesn't look at oneself well, does it? Oh and ROFL at other people does mean rude, you know?
     
  18. HotCarl

    HotCarl MDL Addicted

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    I am not going to waste my time arguing with you over the internet, this is the last thing I will say on the matter. You make yourself look ignorant. Go read up on things before commenting on something you know nothing about.
     
  19. footgay

    footgay MDL Member

    Jun 28, 2009
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    Or I know about it and get what other people try to reason, but not in you?
     
  20. HotCarl

    HotCarl MDL Addicted

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    #40 HotCarl, Dec 18, 2009
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2009
    I do get the fact that is is more difficult to detect a BIOS mod than a loader. There is no disputing that. I am not arguing that. All I said that is it possible to detect a BIOS mod, not that it was as easy as detecting a loader. As I said, read up on things first my friend.

    If other people are saying BIOS mods are undetectable, then they are wrong. Maybe a small percentage will be undetectable if (a) you can spoof the hardware (namely the mobo the PC is running on), or (b) if the computer you modded the BIOS of was still in production when the vendor made the change from SLIC 2.0 to SLIC 2.1.

    I fail to see your point, or what your problem is...

    EDIT: Maybe if you would state the issue that you are referring to, then maybe we could have an educated discussion about it...but if you just want to be argumentative for no reason then I have no time for you.