Why is there something rather than nothing?

Discussion in 'Serious Discussion' started by sid_16, May 9, 2012.

  1. SOCRATE_MMXII

    SOCRATE_MMXII MDL Expert

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    #101 SOCRATE_MMXII, Jun 3, 2012
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2012
    I'm sorry if you feel offended by that phrase. When I wrote it, I didn't want to sound like an offense. I'm really sorry,again. :(

    I'll try to explain how I see it: to create Daz Loader [BTW: thank you Daz for your creation] - the mind needs knowledge and practice with different disciplines created by the mind for the mind.Even here you need inspiration [which is an expression of SELF] to solve different problems when the mind is stuck. But to paint like Picasso, you need inspiration[which is an expression of SELF] - another attribute of the SELF. When thinking stops, then inspiration arises - the SELF expresses.

    It has been said earlier by Yen that the mind cannot observe itself only what it "sees" through the senses.
    I didn't throw the book of Eckhart Tolle to you, I just suggested you to read it. If you don't want to, then don't read it.
    Scientifically, you'll never have an answer simply because there is none. The mind will keep trying and trying in vain, but without any result.

    The problem with humans is they think to much. Too much thoughts running through their minds every second of their life.

    You don't have to have spiritual experiences - I don't know what do you mean by these - to know yourself. The discovery of SELF may look like a spiritual experience, but I wouldn't know.
    I, for one, I know that I'm not my thoughts - I use them to express MYSELF in this "reality". I'm not my body - I'm just limited to it - because I need to know myself - through the experiences.

    Because mind needs training in the fields the mind created for itself. ;)

    If my body gets sick it's because it's vibration has been lowered by negative emotions/thoughts - so all I have to do is to raise the vibration to the proper level by meditation and the body heals.
     
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  2. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    I believe there are 'persons' on earth, who are permanently aware of the 'Self'. The hard thing is: ( I know the problem is the idea of me that I think it is hard , lol A 'master' simply would say: drop that thought)
    Anyway, the hard thing is to be aware of the Self permanently.


    I am sure the 'Self' sometimes 'shines' through at many other people. The awareness of the 'Self' is not every time the same as long as there is the mind. There are moments 'you' are closer to it than other moments.

    I try to describe the feeling what I mean, I am sure many others experience this, too.


    I have been on holidays and relaxed at a beautiful place and nobody is talking and it's quiet, pure nature sounds only.

    Then the thoughts in the mind decrease and the feelings of peace and freedom are spreading all over the body.
    The awareness of 'one who sits here' fades away, the awareness of pure being becomes stronger.
    The Self starts to shine through. It's happiness to be here. I am grateful to be here. And when continuing to stare fixed on one direction, there is nobody who is happy, nobody who stares to somewhere.

    IT is happiness. The joy to simply be. 'You' cannot believe it. It's overwhelming, that much that you might silently cry and get some tears. It's to cry because of deep respect and inconceivability. It's a miracle and simple, so wonderful.
    Simply to be without thoughts. You know you have dreamed all the time and now you are awake.
    There are no questions all is Self-explained and then the insight that 'we' are unaware of 'IT' most of the day, why are we that much stupid? IT is the most natural 'thing' and we don't respect it, we misjudge it by giving it a meaning. How can we?

    OK this is my own description of it which is of course again only relative. My mind reflects a situation and puts it into words.

    Some might think the awareness of the Self is like black and white. Aware: yes, or aware: no.
    This is of course not true. Let's say it's a light which is less or more veiled, but not off or on.
    In calm moments it's more unveiled. To be happy to simply exist (be) is an attribute.

    I am sure this feeling is familiar to many and has many facets. Happiness without a reason. Simply to be grateful to be (here).

    When meditating there is an real active intention to settle down the mind.
    That event on holiday simply happened without any effort. The event is spontaneous: Such events happen rarely to me and always at special places, situations. I guess it's an attribute of such events.
    In meditation it happens actually the same. The only difference is the awareness of the 'shine through' process it more detailed because time is more stretched. The moment where the 'first' thought creates the idea of 'I' and divides the Singularity and creates the 'I' and non 'I' the world 'outside' can be aware in meditation. It's something that always happens as long as there is the mind. But in 'normal' life we are not concentrated enough to be aware of this process.
    (Distracted because of many thoughts)
    I'd like to explain it like this. When having many thoughts in mind time moves relatively faster.
    So one cannot be aware of this because the relative time with a 'ordinary' mind is too fast to have a chance to be aware of.

    When they decrease, the relative time slows down. (Elastic band), the 'moment' becomes more and more aware.
    And to describe it there must be a mind (again). To remain the Self is interrupted by thoughts and the mind is strong.

    So also in meditation there were days where the mind is in 'riot', so 'you' remain at the surface. You only notice about thoughts coming and going. The mind doesn't like that at all to be settled. It's a annoying kid, lol.

    Finally there is an third thing what I have experienced. It is told that the gathering with wise people also affects the 'individual' mind in the same way.
    I had the chance to meet the Dalai Lama. I could not speak to him personally, but he told stories of his life to the audience. It has been a sunny Thursday, outside. IT was an event I never forget.
    There had been an atmosphere.....everybody smiled, happiness and also the feeling: Thank you that I can be here.
    And there was communication besides of spoken words, communication through consciousness.

    I am convinced that only the presence of a wise man affects the own mind in that way that the Self becomes more aware. I think the idea of a wise man must just be honest and respectful.
    It' s not different than to respect the Self. When listening to and to be aware of a wise man one is listening and aware of the Self. And that is not different to meditation.

    But there are a lot of people who cannot respect people of which is told that they are wise.
    So they don't have an idea of a wise man in mind and hence if they would visit them and listen to them , their mind would not have the ability to become affected in that way.

    So you cannot say: Go visit the Dalai Lama or the pope or to whoever or to the church. And you will feel 'better'.
    For those people their wisdom simply doesn't exist (in their mind) and hence their relative truth is: These are just people talking something....
    When I was 15 I thought the same. These all are just people talking something I don't care about.
    It's clear now that it makes no sense to discuss about if there are wise men, women on earth or not.
    It is also clear that it makes no sense to force somebody to respect wise people. They simply don't exist for them, it are just people.
     
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  3. redroad

    redroad MDL Guru

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    #103 redroad, Jun 3, 2012
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2012
    @Yen We share those experiences of which you paint in such a beautiful way. Your words, for the willing, unmask the delight that we share in that sense of being. The visitation of the Self, our most esteemed guest .. I truly enjoy who you are Yen.. :hug2::worthy:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BTJot2yNAU
     
  4. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    Thanks for the video. And thank you for being here.:hug2:
    The video reminds me of the last time when sleeping in the open. Of course the nature hasn't that great variety being at one place. It's the beauty of nature, which is actually one beauty, not different to 'us'.
     
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  5. SOCRATE_MMXII

    SOCRATE_MMXII MDL Expert

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    @redroad: thank you for the video. Very beautiful.
     
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  6. sid_16

    sid_16 MDL Giveaway Organiser

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    Yen sir,I too have more or less the same view. But then a confusion arises regarding cause and effect. How can cause and its effect exist simultaneously? One explanation I have come across for that puzzle is that cause and effect are paired events. We perceive an event as the the effect of another as we always perceive them in that order but in reality they are independent events but always occurring as a pair. What do you think? Any other explanation?
     
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  7. SOCRATE_MMXII

    SOCRATE_MMXII MDL Expert

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    #107 SOCRATE_MMXII, Jun 4, 2012
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2012
    Why is there necessary to be a <cause> and an <effect>?
    It's because the mind cannot comprehend the SELF.

    When the SELF is expressed, the <cause> and <effect> disappear like smoke in the wind. This is what Buddhists call Karma.

    Everything happens NOW, in THIS moment, not later, not future, not past, JUST PRESENT MOMENT. NOW. This is why in nature everything happens simultaneously. Nature is expression of SELF, not an expression of the mind, so it's timeless and from the mind's perspective - nature "moves in a circle".

    "The human mind doesn't know anything at all.There's no true value in anything and any action is an meaningless, useless effort." Masanobu Fukuoka in "One Straw Revolution", 1978

    "To understand nothing is to recognize the limitations of <conventional knowledge.> "Masanobu Fukuoka in "One Straw Revolution", 1978.
     
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  8. sid_16

    sid_16 MDL Giveaway Organiser

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    Here is an interesting article by;
    Martin Reese, cosmologist:

    First, a pre-emptive and trivial comment: if you define the universe as "everything there is", then by definition there cannot be others. I shall, however, follow the convention among physicists and astronomers, and define the "universe" as the domain of space-time that encompasses everything that astronomers can observe. Other "universes", if they existed, could differ from ours in size, content, dimensionality, or even in the physical laws governing them.

    If the universe is defined as "all of existence", then it is trivially true that such universe cannot have a cause, since an external cause cannot exist by definition. This broad definition of "universe" is rarely used though. More commonly, the universe is defined as a subset of existence, and thus the question of cause is open (as long as we grand the soundness and usefulness of the idea of causation).
    P.S-I don't agree with his stance on fine-tuning, but that's a separate issue.

    No-one can directly observe the deep space Hubble has provided us images of either. It is part of the known universe, because it is within our grasp, at least in principle, to know it.

    We, if not all (sorry to say) clearly believe that without understanding the difference between the truth and hypothetical scenarios used to explain theories. Below are some questions;

    1. Do we believe that multiverses exist in which every possible occurrence that can occur occurs?

    2. Do we believe Einstein's special relativity describes relativity as it exists in reality?

    3. Do I believe that you can leave today, travel faster than the speed of light, then return the previous day?

    If we answered "yes" to any of the above questions then we are guilty of indulging in hypothetical faith. Because all three questions are based on hypothetical scenarios scientists have used to explain theories. Scenarios which 'could' never happen in reality. Please feel free to correct me if my understanding of these theories are wrong.
     
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  9. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    Cause and effect are attributes of progressive time.
    Cause and effect are observed by an observer. Also the determination of them is made by the observer and it only can be made if there is linear time and the determination of two events (separation of two events by the observer).

    Simultaneously means at the same time. This means there is no more progress in time. So the basis to differentiate is absent. Ergo cause and effect are the same 'then'.
    Cause and effect are illusionary and relative. Or you can say cause and effect are two sides of the same medal.
    If a event is a cause or an effect is relative so both attributes must be present all the time.
     
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  10. SOCRATE_MMXII

    SOCRATE_MMXII MDL Expert

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    #110 SOCRATE_MMXII, Jun 4, 2012
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2012
    The irony is that science is just showing us how low has gone the human understanding of itself and nature.
    Hermes Trismegistus said "Outside is the reflection of Inside and the other way around".
     
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  11. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    Your interests seem mainly to be in the world 'outside'. :)
    I have many books about the cosmos. Interesting without any doubt, but not suitable to get a progress concerning self-awareness.

    1. How does one separate one universe from the other? There must be an idea of more universes in one's mind.
    And if determined are they real then? It's the same when humans thought matter consists of atoms which form molecules. Then they 'discovered' atoms consist of electrons, neutrons and protons. And finally quarks.

    All these are a processes of separating things that have one reality, that ever exists and is Singular. The one without a 2nd.

    2. In Reality there can't be some-thing. IT simply is.

    3. No. Who am I? Can I leave at all? Am I my body???:D

    No I don't think that there is something faster than light. It is the speed of light relative to space which is observed by an observer. And the fastest that can be measured (by an observer) will be always the speed of light relative to space.
    So 'you' cannot be faster than light. Who actually should be faster?
    The body? It's matter and matter has always the same attributes. And does the past really exist? The past is an idea of the mind. So it is possible to travel to the past only by manipulating this idea.

    @SOCRATE_MMXII
    That is the reason why I have left all these theories to describe the world 'outside' behind me. I am scientist, that's my profession, but I know it is only of a relative benefit in a relative world.
     
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  12. SOCRATE_MMXII

    SOCRATE_MMXII MDL Expert

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    Exactly! To find yourself you have to go INSIDE, not out. ;)
     
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  13. R29k

    R29k MDL GLaDOS

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    Truth is the truth you need not add absolute unless you think you can dilute the truth :D
    To say that you don't do something because you can't see a conclusive result is a bit defeatist isn't it ?! :eek:
    We do it because it's there and the devil is in the details and we want to know.
    An example, Religion is based on faith and has no fact whatsoever but that never stops people believing in it, they have expectations no matter how ridiculous they are.
    You have said many times before that you are a scientist, explain to me how you intend to find your "absolute truth",
    how you intend to take off your proverbial "dirty glasses" and see the light so to speak without questioning and coming up with theories ?
    Are you going to have an epiphany and suddenly come up with the full answers ? Might I also point out that it is a very fine line between greatness and madness.
     
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  14. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    "Truth is the truth you need not add absolute unless you think you can dilute the truth"
    But who recognizes the 'diluted' truth? The idea of a diluted truth is in your mind and you think it matches with my addition.

    The issue is that we objectify the truth by giving a meaning to it.


    "To say that you don't do something because you can't see a conclusive result is a bit defeatist isn't it"
    Where did I say I don't do something?

    I frequently have mentioned that I am a scientist, but not because of pride, it's rather the contrary. So I did a lot to gain knowledge. My primary intention was to realize a talent I have got and I wanted to know more about what's happening in the world.
    But then I had to notice that I can find relative coherences only. Questions about Who am I or what is life and what is Reality remained unanswered.
    I frequently have mentioned that I am a scientist to make clear a scientist states that science is overestimated and never all-knowing. :)
    Of course I use my knowledge in my job to develop new medicine to help others. But I don't study theories anymore about things far 'outside', the universe. My mind has changed. I know that thoughts (the mind) distract when the matter is Reality, the Self.

    "You have said many times before that you are a scientist, explain to me how you intend to find your "absolute truth","

    It is that what simply is, so it cannot be found.

    A story:

    Buddha was asked to come and to tell the people about the truth and the Reality.
    Many people came to listen to him
    Buddha came with a flower in his hand, everybody was looking at him waiting curiously what he will say.
    He never spoke a word, he smiled and looked at the audience. He stayed some time and went away.

    Many people said then Buddha is not a wise man. Because their dirty glasses which is the mind wanted to have it explained and to be told.

    I have written at a previous post about gathering with the wise. And why it makes no sense to discuss about if wise people exist or not.
    It's the same issue.

    "Might I also point out that it is a very fine line between greatness and madness."
    It is. :D
    But it is always one's mind who determines it.

    The idea exist mostly because most think epiphany leads to that somebody gains something great.
    Of what you speak, greatness and madness are conditions of the mind.
    epiphany means to 'get' that Reality is simple being. I am. It's actually the most simple 'thing'.
    Its greatness relies on its simplicity. The mind takes away its greatness by putting it in definitions.

    Madness is not to be able to get that Reality is simple being. It simply IS. It's like.......Whaaat? That's all???? That can't be!!! I want to find it!!! I want to know it!
    Who could find the Reality of which he is a part of???

    The need to want explanations. Explanations that lead to confusions, confusions that lead to madness or even to delusions.
     
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  15. R29k

    R29k MDL GLaDOS

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    @Yen
    The defeatist bit was in reference to this:
    Well you go on to say this in your response post:
    From what you say, and I misinterpreted you until you responded just now, you seem to feel you know the answer to the absolute truth that is why you see no point in looking at books with theories and what not.
    However the teachings you seem to allude to, Buddhist/Hindu, all come to the general conclusion that everything is an illusion. In general they all advocate the Maya Illusion principle.
    Whether it be meditation, prayer, chanting, offerings and sacrifice or whatever the case. It all amounts to an ultimate goal of attaining nirvana/moksha. You will also find that what you are advocating, a distinction
    between the self and the rest is also a part of the illusion and an obstruction to the truth. In Buddhism there is no self. There is no duality but unity. It is only in psychology that the self is considered real. I don't know if the concept you have is your own theory, but you have a hybrid version of reality that mixes up Buddhism and Psychology.
    In any case whatever you choose to follow, whatever religious teachings, they are all theories not fact.
    There is no human being that has ever lived on this Earth that can tell you with any degree of certainty what reality is really !
     
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  16. SOCRATE_MMXII

    SOCRATE_MMXII MDL Expert

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    R29k you miss a very important point: religion is NOT the way to salvation.
    Krishna, Buddha, Jesus never intended to "form" a religion. No. But those who followed transformed the movement into a religion. Buddha says that belief in a higher power [and he meant and outside higher power just like the gods worshiped all over the planet] is in the path of Enlightenment.
    Jesus, Buddha and E. Tolle said the same thing "Do not dwell your mind in the past, nor the future, but concentrate yourself on the present moment."
    Jesus also said: "Love your neighbor like you love yourself." That's the single "law" of BEING: LOVE. Unconditional, to recognize the Divine in the "others". There is no "me" and "others". WE ARE ONE. Plants, animals and humans. Until humanity doesn't SEE THE TRUTH, it will dwell in science, war, and useless killing.
    LOVE is the only reality. Anything else is just dust in the wind.
     
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  17. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    When reading my posts you notice that I have told about my own personal life, my history.
    I have posted about it and about some experiences I had.

    We have the problem here that we always have to give a name to the Reality to talk about.
    I prefer the word Self. It makes no sense to argue about if the self exists or not. Also not if in Buddhism there is the Self or rather the unity.
    This statement only says: Your personal idea of the Self doesn't match with your idea of unity.
    But neither the Self nor the unity can be objectified, they simply are.

    The attribute of such posts is that we could argue and argue...hence I wrote my posts are made to inspire, not to teach.
    And my posts are made with my 'tools' I have available. So of course they have aspects of Buddhism, Hinduism, Christianity, Psychology and science.

    There is one simple thing one can 'determine' if all this is useful to 'him'.
    With all this I mean all wisdom available in the world.
    You only need to ask yourself honestly: Does it make my life happier, peaceful and fulfilled? Can I enjoy my life or am I frequently depressed? Am I satisfied? What's about my fear of death? Do I know who I am? Am I really happy?

    One can now study / exercise a particular thing. No matter if science, religion, meditation....and one can re-ask oneself those questions.
    And when 'found' something that changes 'it' to the better then one has found 'his' own way.
    But 'our' goal is always the same. It's Reality.
    'All will end in the Self', our origin. Which is pure being.
    Hence Buddha simply came with a flower in his hand and said nothing.
    Reality is self-explained.
    When one tries to explain the Reality he objectifies it. There is only the Reality. Whatever you think it is, it looks like that.

    Everybody can say: I am. And that is the truth. There is actually nothing more to add.
    The confusion starts when saying I am this or that. All things that are perceived are aspects of the objectified Reality and not different to the Reality, it is the mind that separates. They have all one thing in common, they simply are.

    The illusion is the pseudo-subject of the 'I' idea. The' 'I' idea is in fact also objectified Reality.
    This illusion causes exclusion. I (my body) am in 'the world'.
    When you are outside and have a look at a beautiful flower, what do you actually see? You see its beauty, which is one beauty which is not different to yours.

    Another way to summarize all that: We will create questions about the world as long we misjudge the world, as long as we are not able to see it as the world really is, to see it as Reality, which is pure being.
     
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  18. R29k

    R29k MDL GLaDOS

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    @Yen
    I was just interested in finding out where you got your ideas from :D

    This I find interesting:

    Enlightenment
    There is self and there is truth. Where self is, truth is not. Where truth is, self is not. Self is the fleeting error of samsara; it is individual separateness and that egotism which begets envy and hatred. Self is the yearning for pleasure and the lust after vanity. Truth is the correct comprehension of things; it is the permanent and everlasting, the real in all existence, the bliss of righteousness.


    The existence of self is an illusion, and here is no wrong in this world, no vice, no evil, except what flows from the assertion of self. The attainment of truth is possible only when self is recognized as an illusion. Righteousness can be practiced only when we have freed our mind from passions of egotism. Perfect peace can dwell only where all vanity has disappeared.


    Blessed is he who has understood the Dharma. Blessed is he who does no harm to his fellow-beings. Blessed is he who overcomes wrong and is free from passion. To the highest bliss has he attained who has conquered all selfishness and vanity. He has become the Buddha, the Perfect One.

    Source
     
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  19. redroad

    redroad MDL Guru

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    #119 redroad, Jun 5, 2012
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2012
    The self is the marauder, the pillager. The Self gives no sway or credence to the self because it does not exist. :hug2:
     
  20. SOCRATE_MMXII

    SOCRATE_MMXII MDL Expert

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    #120 SOCRATE_MMXII, Jun 5, 2012
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2012
    Exactly. The mind created "the tools to understand the world" when in fact, there's nothing to understand at all. Everything is to contemplate.
    All humankind did, was to loose the the touch with itself and nature.
    Then the humankind started to live inside the head, thus the tool <mind> became the master.
    When was the last time the modern man contemplated a flower, a tree or the laugh of his child...

    "If knowledge is power and power corrupts how is going mankind to redeem itself?"

    @R29k: the self[small letters] referes to the individual, to the mind, when TRUTH=SELF. ;)

    @redroad:you're right. ;)
     
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