Geez, and we think the Chinese are held stupid by their government with their internet filter. You can try to justify the US reaction on the information published on wikileaks, fact is 3.000.000+ US citizens had access to the information published, which makes it hard to keep secret, don't you think? And now it is out in the open blame the publisher for leaking is just retarded. I have hoped after the debacle called G.W. Bush would have give the US politicians a little more sense of what is really going on in the world ...yet my conclusion tells me otherwise.
Talking about the inevitability of something still doesn't change anything. Every person is responsible, in himself, for his actions. What I'm saying is that I don't agree with Assange's actions, nor with the arguments people trump up to defend him. I see no reason to defend him, but this does not mean I'm some sort of US conservative. I was actually amused they took Sarah Palin's website down. What I'm talking about is not political polarization, I'm talking about behaving responsibly. You don't do things just because you can. You do them when it is appropriate and constructive to do so. People employ that in their lives every day. So how does something that happens on a global scale deserve less consideration? Giving names of people under cover that will then be killed is not responsible. So he doesn't care about them. Why defend someone like that?
I haven't stated that it would be OK to risk others life when you are risking your own. I have said that those Afghans are operating in a country where is war, they are probably armed and have learned how to use weapons. They know that they have to do a dangerous job and they are doing it voluntarily, they are not on holidays. I can construe the same for you, I mean that you are thinking not right. I never heard of you that you are worried about Assange. He definitely has to be afraid of to be killed. You don't like him and hence you think it would be OK to kill him. But that leads to nothing. Also you have said that every person is responsible, in himself, for his actions. So the one who is pulling the trigger to kill someone is finally the one that IS responsible for it. You shall not kill. Or do you think somebody would be found not guilty if he says..."I have killed the Afghan, because Assange has leaked his name"...? I want to say that I'm a pacifist. I would never carry arms with me. Even more I never would do a job where you need weapons to do it. Weapons are made to kill, also if I have a job at which weapons are needed I have to expect that I got killed. No matter if soldier, police man or any other job at which I need guns. You are presenting wikileaks = Assange. It's a team and decisions are made of a team and not of one person only. It leads to nothing to pick on Assange. If he should 'disappear' others will continue to leak. It seems to me that you are searching for a culprit and your result is Assange. Like FreeStyler said you should think about who is responsible for the leaks at first place and why all those leaks are that much exciting. Also you are focusing on the Afghanistan leaks only. There are many many others. I want you to ask what you would do if you would have got such explosive material? To burn it and remain silent? If I got you right then it would be the best way. Oh wait..you would have to complete a test before...you need to be a certified leaker? No hard feelings.. . I used to be ironic. What I want to say is that there are situations in life where you have to act. To start a revolutionary action you have to act. I guess you don't like that way. IMO there is no other possibility when you have decided to leak such explosive material. Assange or somebody else it doesn't matter. Imagine if you decide to go for the leak, sooner or later events will happen that are out of your control, that's the nature of a revolutionary action. The action is not fully controllable, the action will cause harm. To me it's a good way to arouse the population. Wikileaks is using a way without guns. The computer era has made it possible to go for such a way. You are worried about that somebody could be killed. Nothing has happened so far. And please don't forget if somebody should be killed the one who has killed and the one who has ordered to kill are responsible for it. Assange would never do that. What's that all about compared to other actions taken by governments? Your concerns are about what could happen, wikileaks is about what has happened ALREADY! I don't want to overdo my arguing..I just want to say the time is right for wikileaks, go on!
I will no comment much, i rather stay neutral...lol But wikileaks its doing a great job unveiling real information to citizens... BTW I'm from P.R. (USA Commonwealth) - wikiliaks should release some info from our government (Luis Fortuno)
Yen, I don't think it's OK for Assange to get killed, or that it is 'just' that some people might want to harm him. Not at all. What I was concerned with is the manner in which Wikileaks is putting all this information out there. To me it only proves that 'if it can be done, it will be done,' but this means there is no moral compass that infuses Wikileaks, as their disregard for the safety of people has already been shown (whether or not they potentially put themselves in harm's way while they do this or not). If you're really concerned with the safety and protection of people, you would go about these things very diligently and precisely. Not the way Wikileaks is doing things. Now, the governments and companies about which Wikileaks exposes all this information surely can learn from this and it may have some positive effects in that it forces them to clean up their behavior and policies, so that could be a positive effect. But it seems to me that Wikileaks is posting all this stuff rather indiscriminately, which they should take as their lesson. I just don't see Wikileaks' approach as wise or moderated. People talk about revolution as an emotion, but do they really know what that entails? Revolutions are very painful and hard and I really don't think that is what we need right now. Just study history and think about if you really want a revolution. Your life will change dramatically, no comfort zone anymore, disarray and shortages will follow, and a generally unstable situation will come to the fore, from which bad forces will seek to capitalize and further themselves. In time of war, I don't think anyone would put their family's safety in your hands then. If you know a certain person or groups is hell-bent on killing what they consider their mortal enemies or 'infidels' and you hand them the information that can lead to them, you then say 'well, it's their responsibility'? What a warrior and a leader does it to protect, that is his highest function in any society, from tribal on. What you are saying is the opposite of that, it is putting someone in harm's way. This is exactly what I'm talking about and what you're not getting. It is managing information responsibly. It is my feeling Wikileaks is not doing this.
Thanks for your post, I like to discuss with you, even though we have some different opinions. Well, I guess in many aspects we don't come to an mutual agreement. But I already have mentioned that the way how to leak isn't professional and can be improved. I also have said that they will do, have a look at: http://operationleakspin.org/ In war to kill seems to be lawful, to me it never is. The basic question is: Must Assange expect that an Afghan will be shot because of his leakage? You think yes and I think no. As long as there is nobody killed I'm right and you are wrong. It's that simple. And even if it should happen, regarding remorse and to feel responsible for it, it will ever be the one that has finally killed. What would be worse to you: To have leaked info that has lead to an event at which somebody has been killed. Or when you have killed a human by yourself? It will be the latter and why? Because you need an intention, a purpose to kill which Assange definitely hasn't! You see the potential killer like an automatic machine..you think you have to expect that this machine will work. Anyway it is a human that has a purpose to kill, a killer has to pull the trigger purposely. And should not be responsible for it???? The trigger doesn't become pulled itself.
I agree, the killer is the one pulling the trigger. But if you have seen how people were publicly executed by the Taliban in arena's for as little as reading a 'subversive book' or the lack of a proper head scarf on a woman, then do you really want to philosophically approach the matter of what they would do with someone who has become exposed as actively plotting against them? No, I think Assange (or rather, Wikileaks) should realize they cannot exclude that from happening IF they leak. And in matters of life and death (especially of someone else!) one has to take the utmost caution. And if the information that is personal is of no critical value to whatever WL is trying to do (and what is that, exactly?) then obviously it should be left out. It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out certain information in the hands of the Taliban is not the safest thing in the world (...) Of course it may depend on which side of the issue you stand in understanding what I'm saying... otherwise I would think it pretty clear and reasonable what I'm saying...
I totally agree with that you have to take the utmost caution when you leak explosive stuff. And I agree the leaks should have been revised in a better way. But what is 'utmost caution'? Isn't it no leakage at all? When I have to cross the steet I could become run over by a car.... There is no totally safe action at all, especially when talking about revolutionary actions. Catchword : idealism Generally I don't know if you are able to make use of 'the revolutionary idea'..... In life, when you are totally convinced that some action is right and you are on earth for it, you were born to go for it, you simply will give it all to accomplish... It must be of someone's nature to feel that, to live that.....I can comprehend it..... Revolution and caution are hardly compatible, because they are totally different in nature.... I mod bioses even though a PC could become bricked, because it's my way to break monopoly......a mini revolution??? joking.....
Has anyone seen the film by John Pilger "the war you dont see" ? which was aired in the UK a week or so ago - I found it interesting and it did feature in part Assange/wikileaks. It also showed a Pentagon document stating that "US intelligence intends to destroy trust in wikileaks by threatening whistleblowers with exposure and criminal prosecution thereby discrediting truthtellers" Assange/wikileaks is currently subject to precisely the kind of treament that the film accurately described prior to current events and the (embedded) media are playing an enormous role in this. Anyone else see the film? what did you think?
while i totaly agree with you about wikileaks, in this point youre wrong. the economic crisis is not a product of some bank jerks, doing the same as all working people: produce some profit for the rich. it is a compulsive consequence of basic arithmetic rules. an economic system, calling for exponential yield in a limited world, has to crash simply by math logic. economy is a organism just like the human one. money is the blood and should circulate endless. if one organ will grow faster then the other, it will consume all power and finaly kill the organism. the behavior of money in this economic system, called capital-ism, is known by medicans too. there it is called cancer. think about the similarities ..... something to read for the inquisitive: http://userpage.fu-berlin.de/~roehrigw/Welcome.html#english
yanks kill iraq people in a war with "depleted uranium"-bombs, justified by fictional "weapons of mass destruction", they support dictatures all over the world, shaking hands with sadam huseen, doing criminal killings by cia-agents "under cover" everywhere, and if somebody uncovers them, they cry about not to "endanger our people"? they should not be there at all! its ther own fault! " i do something criminal, i'm under cover, and if you uncover me, you're the bad, because you endanger me." ??????? sounds very strange to me. EDIT: you're talking about the taliban. years before they would be called "mujahedin" and supported by the very same people, witch state now a "fight against terrorism" and "for democracy and freedom". who's responsible for most of the dictatures and fanatic people? who has killed free elected presidents and destroyed many young democracies, established bad systems, the same, what they now state to attack? who is responsible in the first place for all this? i dont want to attack you, just want to point to this question.
the whole day i had thought about it and i felt, i missed the point. now i found it: you talk about the soldiers. what about the people, who were shot by them? is this to justify with the live of the armed people, witch voluntarily decided to risc their lives? is it responsible to ignore this victims on all this wars? have we the right, to close our eyes and to remain silent, while unarmed people will be killed? whom should we protect? i know my answer, but you have to make your own decisions. just my 2 cent
Woho! From a Buddhistic point of view: Everything that has been created must disappear later in time. So capital market as it is now will disappear and will bring a lot of victims. So you are right..... Lol! Honestly, you cannot state that it's a market issue only. Ever heard of ethics, moral and its counterparts: greed for money, inconsideration, irresponsibility and rip off? They are responsible because they have caused it due to their actions. And yes sooner or later the capital market will break down, but this is no excuse for their actions taken! Money should circulate endless...and greed for it, is that healty? Appropriate brokerage? Where? From where do you think those bank jerks have got the money? It is their own? They haven't worked for it themselves, they are just playing with it! To get money to invest they have lied to the investors telling about that there is no risk at all. Also some American bank jerks have transacted buisiness (as they have noticed about the problem with Greece) which was used to systematically destroy the Euro currency! To make it even worse....they've bet on the fall of Greece. The modern market has created new products, dangerous products that can fastly destroy a healty market. All products have been developed to make profit in a faster way. Ask Obama himself how he thinks about the responsibility of these jerks! And comparing that to cancer: Those jerks are the cancer itself. Cancer that has affected the market. They are responsible for the harm. more precise: The cancer for the market is greed, inconsideration and irresponsibility. Everything must grow, grow,grow..more..more..more...to where, to where shall it grow??? That is totally insane! These attributs are manifest in them. They accelerate the breakdown of the market and they will escape unscathed. To pay for it has the common citizen. But wait......it's natural so why complain about.... Let's wait for the leaks!
Ya they are right. Their website should not be banned. They are telling people some truths about their countries. They are fabulous.
I personally disagree with this site for 1 main reason. It is that they got the information illegally. If they obtained the info in a more legal manor then it would be different but because it was not I don't think they should continue.
Has "legal" Sam what free's us. Do you perfectly trust the U.S. govt? Sometimes the rules blind us as maybe they are intended to so I personally disagree that they are criminals if their "stolen info" helps enlighten and keep us from disinformation? i hate the gvmt getting into our heads them keeping us from info we deserve in our human rights to have access to Perhaps they are renegades or heretics? Remember the civil war? A war to free slaves that the opposition thought was "illegal" accroding to their rules until the "rules" we're changed. So in our temporal world what's seem permanent and legitament might not be in "time" and regarding a resistance to the powers that be FTW
I downloaded the cablegate archives & reviewed a few of them. When I found Steve Jobs name mentioned I Dl that torrent. WOW, I wonder if he knows that info (his medical report = HIV-1 positive + other very sensitive info) is available to everyone. Personally I found it interesting reading the various files that I snagged.