'Wish' what would it be for you?

Discussion in 'Chit Chat' started by sid_16, Jun 24, 2012.

  1. msr

    msr MDL Senior Member

    Dec 27, 2007
    413
    54
    10
    @Socrate mmxii - its who ever is running our society.

    The term ptb always are meaning the ones who run society, above gov and police. You can think of them how you like. Its like how tony blair was being interviewed once, and he noted its strange how russia have the same system as us in the west nearly. Why is that? Like how come all news stations run the same news stories mainly when news stations and papers should be independent of each other, but they mainly get there news from the associated press. Who owns that?

    Like platos allegory of the cave, i wonder how many are really awake. Disinfo for the win.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  2. SOCRATE_MMXII

    SOCRATE_MMXII MDL Expert

    Jan 25, 2012
    1,033
    318
    60
    Well, not many of us are awake. Some of us still think we're our bodies, our thoughts a.s.o.

    It's very hard to show a blind man the light. :(
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  3. Yen

    Yen Admin
    Staff Member

    May 6, 2007
    13,081
    13,977
    340
    It's the 'mystery of life'. But like platos allegory of the cave it is ONE that needs to turn around to enter the exit.
    Evolution only exists to the 'unwise'. Nescience remains them in the cave.
    Ignorance appear them to be strange who have left the cave. The truth cannot be told to them who are left in the cave. Experience is to go outside.
    When still remaining in the cave those in the cave need the others who tell them of the existence of an exit.

    The allegory of the cave happens now, its wisdom is eternal.
    The resolution of the allegory of the cave cannot be thought, ONE needs to make the effort to enter the exit. So why to think about 'the others' in the cave?
    Actually to the one who has left the cave there is no more cave with individual shadows.

    The wooden fire that causes the shadows represents the mind, the sun the Self.
    The allegory of the cave has also the same issue. The one who goes outside is still shown to be in another cave, which is the world with all its objects.
    So the sun is just another fire the objects in the world just other shadows.
    But to illustrate the truth one needs objects. To ask who has created the Self makes no sense. Hence it's an allegory.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  4. sid_16

    sid_16 MDL Giveaway Organiser

    Oct 15, 2011
    2,494
    5,362
    90
    #64 sid_16, Jul 5, 2012
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2012
    (OP)
    Okay, its human construct, that was just an analogy but my point was to define free will and god separately, 'cos human free will and god's omniscience is always contradictory. But nobody care to define it.:D





    I don't believe in life after death? 'reincarnation / life after death' is as incoherent as 'before the beginning' or 'after the end' or 'north of the north pole' ...

    Do you believe in reincarnation? no. a new body (lit: re-incarnate) entails a wholly different brain (wholly distinct personality). incoherent premise of 'disembodied mind' ...

    Why? memory being incarnate, when the body decomposes autobiographical memory is irretrievably lost. whatever 'survives' death cannot be personal in any nontrivial sense.

    "It is wrong always, everywhere and for everyone to believe anything upon insufficient evidence. " -- W.K. Clifford

    This is not about whether 'The Creator lets us' or we have it or not, it’s about what it actually is.

    So, if an action is not determined, either as a result of a causality chain of events or that it is not determined as a result of purely random means then how else can an action be determined?
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  5. sid_16

    sid_16 MDL Giveaway Organiser

    Oct 15, 2011
    2,494
    5,362
    90
    Yen sir you're clearly denying the fact about reincarnation. Am I right sir? Belief only to the extent of evidence (consisting of a truth-value) would be rational. Is there any evidence for "life after death" or reincarnation? I don't know of any. (of course by "evidence" I mean physical evidence ...) In fact I think this phrase is as nonsensical as "life before birth". all physical evidence suggests that life consists of birth & death, and thus it makes no sense to talk about life outside of these constraints. Llife, like time, cannot precede or surpass its beginning or ending. at least, it makes no sense to claim so. I might as well ask "how rational is the belief in life without a body?" many people believe in disembodied spirits or souls or what have we, but no one has provided evidence to warrant such beliefs, and it's quite likely that no one ever will. Until then I'd say it's not rational to hold such beliefs.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  6. R29k

    R29k MDL GLaDOS

    Feb 13, 2011
    5,171
    4,811
    180
    That all depends on how you look at it. Remember energy is neither created nor destroyed but changes from one state to another. So maybe when you die you change state!
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  7. Yen

    Yen Admin
    Staff Member

    May 6, 2007
    13,081
    13,977
    340

    No, to deny is probably the wrong expression. Reincarnation belongs to the mind, it is an human idea. It is mainly found in Buddhism / Hinduism. One third of all humans believe in it.

    I have been very interested in Tibetan mystique / culture and Buddhism. IMHO the Tibetan culture had been the last advanced civilisation on earth and we know what had happened. (Btw: This is to me personally the cruellest and saddest event in history of the world I am witness of).

    Even to the no-existence-without-proof people there are facts actually proving reincarnation happens.
    Just inform yourself how the next Dalai Lama was found.

    I have also studied the Bardo Thodol (common poorly translated English title ‘Tibetan Book of the Dead’) translated by Robert A. F. Thurman (btw his daughter the famous actress Uma Karuna Thurman, ‘Kill Bill’)

    It is an fantastic book. It describes detailed the resolution process of the affinity to the body, the kind of fears, the colours assigned to each kingdom, the major attributes of them, the traps, the predispositions. And when ‘missed’ the home the process backwards, the affinity to the new body.
    There are signs of each kingdom and attributes. The core attributes one carries with oneself ‘to death’, finally his last belief is responsible for the rebirth. Becoming and belief is not different.

    To a ‘normal’ mind this process happens in a split second. But when heard before of the Bardo Thodol the one has awareness to perceive detailed the process of dying.

    I have mentioned before time is relative and the less thoughts the ‘less’ time. Less time means closer to eternity.


    To me the question is simply not interesting, the question if reincarnation exists or not. It belongs to the mind. The one who believes in it will be reincarnated. And reincarnation happens actually now.

    I only can tell of my experiences, what I know.
    The idea ‘I am my body’ is the most major flaw one can have. Alone from intellectual evaluation everybody can unveil this illusion.
    The body consists of a defined amount of substances right now. Due to food intake and excretions they change constantly, however not one’s body idea.
    When searching for the ‘I’ core (where I is located) one finds nothing.

    Most who have intellectually unveiled this illusion stop here and say yes, cool an illusion, fascinating.
    When one has learned techniques of awareness one experiences it.
    Yes existence without the idea of the body. To be the body is an illusion and when aware of this the first time one might cry.
    I don’t need a proof for that and I do not belief in that. I know it. And I am doing things in my life when I feel ‘I am my body’ which are able to suppress this illusion.
    I perceive things not to be different from ‘me’, I appreciate ‘objects’ not different to ‘me’, I practice awareness. (I walk when I walk, I laugh when I laugh, I clean my room when I clean it. I eat when I eat.)

    I mean most of us are absent-minded, they do not walk when they walk. They think of something else while walking, you know what I mean? They eat and think of the future or even the past. They don’t remain in present, the only ‘state’ that is real. Can you remember what had been your dinner at last Monday? Or can you remember how you used your fork to pick up a chunk of it? You have used your fork and a knife to cut it into pieces. You’ve moved the fork into your mouth then you chewed. Set of teeth moving, flavours extracting, tasting, swallowing.
    Who is really aware of it? Who really eats while eating? Who really 'relativizes' time by increasing moments of awareness?

    I practise awareness since only when one is aware one can be Self aware. To be aware in the present means to live. Anything else is dreaming.
    I try to stay awake, nothing more.
    I watch the world, I hug it, I enjoy it. It’s me. I stretch my arms and shout ‘I am!’ It’s a shout no-body can hear.


    And I am sure when one is totally aware of one’s Self the one can decide in which kingdom the rebirth shall happen or if the one wants to go home.
    Total awareness melts together belief and becoming.

    http://www.shardsofconsciousness.com/how-they-find-the-dalai-lama
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  8. sid_16

    sid_16 MDL Giveaway Organiser

    Oct 15, 2011
    2,494
    5,362
    90
    May be you're right, may be not, its because what you said is physical phenomena but the 'spirit' or 'soul' that survive the death as believed by some are not defined to be physical phenomena.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  9. R29k

    R29k MDL GLaDOS

    Feb 13, 2011
    5,171
    4,811
    180
    The soul if it exists is probably energy unless it is something we don't know anything about, which is assuming too much.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  10. sid_16

    sid_16 MDL Giveaway Organiser

    Oct 15, 2011
    2,494
    5,362
    90
    Everything is a product of our(human) imagination.

    I'm sorry to say that, think of the thousands of lifetimes the motorists will spend as insects flying into windscreens, or as mosquitoes being swatted. I guess reincarnation at least has the advantage of explaining why there are so many insects.:D
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  11. R29k

    R29k MDL GLaDOS

    Feb 13, 2011
    5,171
    4,811
    180
    There are trillions of bugs on Earth, that amounts to a huge amount of failures. :D
    I wonder if microscopic creatures are part of the cycle too ?
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  12. Yen

    Yen Admin
    Staff Member

    May 6, 2007
    13,081
    13,977
    340
    I guess one can believe there is no soul, only the body. So when the one dies, the one dies and nothing will be left.
    Or one can believe there is something else. And then the one needs to give it a name to it. 'Soul'. But he won't be satisfied with it. He wants to have an idea of that soul he just has created, yes invented.
    So the one says it is energy. But the one will not be satisfied with it. The one wants to know where the energy is located, where it comes from. And the one will find another name for it and he is continuing and repeating that until the one dies. At that moment his belief will come true, becoming and belief unite.

    The 'wise' stop to give 'the first effect' a cause. It simply is. Why? Because there is no-body who could determine a cause. The one IS the first effect which is also the last effect without a cause.

    When one asks another to stop about thinking of something, like what is the soul or the Self, then one might think that is suspicious and smells a flaw. But it's the smell of ignorance. The one is one of those left in the cave laughing about that other.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  13. sid_16

    sid_16 MDL Giveaway Organiser

    Oct 15, 2011
    2,494
    5,362
    90
    Please correct me if my understanding of those stuff like 'soul' or 'spirit' are incorrect. Here I'd like to cite an example of an electric bulb. When the electrical energy flows through the filament of the bulb it glows and converts electrical energy into light energy. When the bulb is fused the glow disappears.

    Here, where has the energy gone? Is it right to say that the glow of the bulb still exists in some other form? The electrical energy which caused the bulb to glow still exists as a potential in the circuit ready to cause a glow on another bulb but the glow of the old bulb is gone for good.

    Soul or spirit if we equate it with consciousness, is the result of qualia, various feelings/experiences generated in the brain circuitry. It is driven by energy and is comparable to the electric bulb example. Once the brain is dead (as the bulb is fused) the glow of the soul or spirit or consciousness disappears for good. The energy which caused the consciousness remain as energy but it cannot exist as the earlier consciousness which it caused.

    Energy becomes recognizable only when it is manifested on matter. Other wise it is just energy without any distinctive or individual properties.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  14. sid_16

    sid_16 MDL Giveaway Organiser

    Oct 15, 2011
    2,494
    5,362
    90
    Mr Nero 100 wrote;
    In a theistic universe you make a lot of sense, unfortunately we 'all' don´t live in a theistic universe.:D
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  15. Yen

    Yen Admin
    Staff Member

    May 6, 2007
    13,081
    13,977
    340
    sid_16 you are watching the shadows, stand up, turn around and leave the cave.:D
    A little joke of myself, but with some truth in it... :)

    Energy cannot be created or be destroyed. Hence nobody can add energy to the existing energy or take away energy from the existing energy. Energy can be transformed, but there must be an observer creating this transformation, relative to his 'I' idea.
    So 'energy' is a very good 'image' of the soul, the Self.

    Asking from where comes that original energy is like to ask from where comes the Self.
    Glow is transformation, but not energy itself. Energy simply IS. Its 'content' ever remains to be the same. Also energy cannot be perceived, its transformation can only. The same is with the soul, Self.

    Matter is a static form of energy. Hence the law is the same. Nobody can add matter or destroy matter.
    To destroy even one atom means to destroy the entire universe.

    Assumed one is energy, so then there can never be transformation without to lose 'identity'. Energy cannot transform itself. Transformation claims for 2 different states. But energy is one state.
    The only way to detect transformation is to create another identity.
    The same happens to the humans. The Self is energy, the other identity is their body / mind.

    The different ideas of the Self are the different kinds of energy. (heat, electrical, chemical, light) Those never are the energy itself.

    Nobody can add something to the Self or take away something. It simply IS. The same is with the energy and the same is with matter.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  16. R29k

    R29k MDL GLaDOS

    Feb 13, 2011
    5,171
    4,811
    180
    I can't correct you since I don't have a clue what the soul is and if it even exists. You probably know just as much as the next person about it, it's just ideas no one has any proof of anything.
    Remember when the bulb is burning the light energy is transferred to heat energy. When the bulb has burnt out the energy in whatever form it has become is still existing somewhere.
    With life I don't know quite exactly what it is that keeps people alive maybe there is some energy or maybe it is just a mechanical process that breaks down eventually just like your car would.
    The problem is that if the process is just mechanical then you should be able repair dead people and bring them to life again much like your broken down car. Maybe that is just impossible or
    we just don't know enough to do that yet. What I find fascinating is that people can completely lose their identity with sufficient brain damage. One would have to wonder what is carried forward
    at death if the whole soul theory is real. You would probably lose everything and restart from a blank slate.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  17. sid_16

    sid_16 MDL Giveaway Organiser

    Oct 15, 2011
    2,494
    5,362
    90
    Let me again bring in Dr.Ramachandran's book and what he has to say about the "self "problem. According to him the "self" and qualia are two sides of the same coin similar to the feelings like happiness and love. He describe 7 different attributes of self and explains the parts of the brain responsible for these attributes. In short, self is a sum total of different processes in the brain and it gives us a feeling that there is a "ghost in the machine" or "homunculus" sitting inside us. It is just a feeling created when different parts of the brain communicate with each other. He has cited many examples where different types of brain disorder give rise to strange behavior. There are cases where a patient says his left hand belongs to his brother.The self can even extend outside the body. When you are playing chess you assume you are the queen as you plan her next move. If your new car gets scratched you almost feel the pain. Soul, god etc are just emotional feelings generated in the amygdala of the brain and encouraged by our intense survival instinct.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  18. SOCRATE_MMXII

    SOCRATE_MMXII MDL Expert

    Jan 25, 2012
    1,033
    318
    60
    @R29k & sid_16: you both think you're the car, when you're in fact THE DRIVER who drives the car. That's the problem of humanity: humans identified so much with their bodies&minds that they forgot who they really are. ;)

    Quiz for the science geex: how does a human being see? Full explanation required. ;)
    I give the answer for you in advance: the "body" doesn't see, because IT CAN'T!
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  19. R29k

    R29k MDL GLaDOS

    Feb 13, 2011
    5,171
    4,811
    180
    There was a TED talk done with him here
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  20. sid_16

    sid_16 MDL Giveaway Organiser

    Oct 15, 2011
    2,494
    5,362
    90
    Every time someone says something about spirituality/mysticism , everyone in that room thinks of something different. It's just ill-conceived and not adequate for proper communication. Spirituality /mysticism , which is great, but another can mean connection to divine realms and having telepathy to plants or some such nonsense. I am annoyed by that word. It is an empty box anyone can put anything into it.:p
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...