'Wish' what would it be for you?

Discussion in 'Chit Chat' started by sid_16, Jun 24, 2012.

  1. R29k

    R29k MDL GLaDOS

    Feb 13, 2011
    4,717
    4,344
    150
    Remember you don't need Religion to believe in God!
     
  2. 60cent

    60cent MDL Senior Member

    May 31, 2011
    437
    514
    10
    I believe that we don't absolutely need religion, as far too many religions have been perverted into cults. However, we do need a relationship with the real God, which is certainly not the same thing.

    If I want to go to confession,what will the pastor tell me,he himself doesn´t have a clue of life.
    He´ll say go there infront of the Jesus statue and do the our father prayer 20 times and if possible spend some money to help the church.
    After the our father prayer you will be a good person again and everything you did will be forgiven by God :D
    Sorry for my language but i have to say it,after he gets my donation which should normally go to the church or some aid organization,he takes my money and goes to the Puff to look at some with oil-lubricated women and have fun. :eek:
    Besides all that,who are Pastors,Lawyers... to judge me should i go to jail,should i be executed,will i go to heaven or hell...I mean they are just people like me and you and have no right to judge me for anything.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  3. SOCRATE_MMXII

    SOCRATE_MMXII MDL Expert

    Jan 25, 2012
    1,034
    315
    60
    We all once were a pastor, a lawyer, a soldier, a criminal...it's the only way to know ourselves, so we shouldn't be angry on them, but feel compassion.
    Love is everything, that's why we have to love every1!
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  4. RawData

    RawData MDL Member

    Mar 4, 2008
    223
    30
    10
    #164 RawData, Jul 20, 2012
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2012
    Then, why do you use picture of Ganesha? :confused:

    Edit:
    Wish Department announces that all wishes of happiness are used up.
    Those left out, think it this way: How would you know you're happy without ever being unhappy?
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  5. sid_16

    sid_16 MDL Giveaway Organiser

    Oct 15, 2011
    2,446
    4,908
    90
    You mean to say in order to be happy you should know what unhappiness is? How can you have happiness without having first what makes you happy?:confused:
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  6. Yen

    Yen Admin
    Staff Member

    May 6, 2007
    11,725
    11,853
    340
    This matter is actually more complex. I want to mention different aspects.

    In northern Thailand early in the morning I frequently saw the monks walking along the streets begging alms. The monks there have no own property. The people there give them food and in return they get their benison.
    The inhabitants live like do every day at least one good thing. It’s an tradition and it’s no money.
    Anyway it is an article of value they give away and they get something from ‘above’.


    And there is the act of donation. Also almost every Buddhist temple I saw has a donation box to put in money. It’s the same like in a Church where the collection bag moves through the rows.

    I don’t see a problem when somebody is donating. Important is the reason why the one donates.
    I donate because of respect and I donate there where the people are poor. And I donate because I want that this culture and religion remains vivid and lively.

    But there are people who are secretly hoping: It can be only good to donate to an institution which has connections to a higher power.
    This motivation I personally find already questionable.

    And there can be blank despair.

    A family has a 12 year old daughter who suffers from leukaemia. It seems their daughter has highly probable to die. This story is a true story btw. untill now.....(I tell the rest later...)

    Let’s say the family is strongly religious, Catholic, for instance. But they were only involved into conservative traditions, yes objects.
    (I mean: They go every Sunday to the church, they donate all the time, they have an image of god, they would not dare to miss a Sunday to go to church, they are christened, they had communion, they are married. All they did because of the 'force of the traditions' to remain, 'normal', you know what I mean?)

    The medic say they cannot do anything.
    So wouldn’t the family give all their money away to keep their daughter alive?
    Or even if one says, pray and donate and your daughter will come to heaven?

    One who is despaired and not self aware can become a victim of religious traps.


    And finally there is a original meaning of donation. To give away something (an object) I don’t need.
    The action is a preparation of the total loss of all objects every-body will encounter.
    Propertylessness is a condition which is conform to the ‘Self’.
    And the desire for objects is a power which keeps me away from Self awareness. The pseudo-subject, which is actually an object. An object that accumulates objects.

    It does because the identification (I-idea) is restricted and hence there is a lack of objects.
    (I am my body and my mind and anything else is a probable object for my desire).
    The lack of objects causes a sort of incompleteness and this incompleteness causes unhappiness.
    So we accumulate objects which is pure consuming.

    So to donate can make one self aware, it can be a good thing!!!


    This is absolutely right. And I myself wouldn’t consider me being a religious person.
    I do not care much about religious institutions. I talk to monks and I read books when I have the feeling it is good for me. I meditate and I do some yoga when I want. I have friends I talk about frequently.:)

    Btw: There are methods which easily make you experiencing the Self. Much more effective than visiting religious institutions.
    The so frequently claimed evidence is experience.
    But nobody (here) who has doubts doesn’t make the effort.
    By waiting for a book with theories and evidences you will never explore the Self.
    There are breath controlled meditations revealing the Self.
    They only should be used when instructed. Because to some it’s just a immense event when the ‘I’ illusion breaks down at once and you stand to god and you see your Holy Face.

    But I live at a place where Christianity is a major aspect of my culture.
    The people here are christened and had communion or confirmation. They either are Catholic or Protestant. Most still make their wedding ceremony in the church. And all funerals are happening in the church.

    When my grandpa died I was young, I had no clue about spirituality and religion.
    I was sad and angry, I felt alone, I felt fooled.

    The preaching sounded like total taunt to me.

    Blahblahblah…was a good man…blahblahblah…time is now god will take him home…blahblah…god help the immediate family to stand the hard time…blahblah…the Lord had given it the Lord takes it…..blahblah alpha omega..blahblah….


    It took a real long time until I felt there is own need to change something.
    My study of Chemistry had been over already and I came through my travels to Buddhism.
    Really fascinating and very scientific. Buddhism is IMHO no religion.

    I did things on my own. I read books, I met people, I talked. I visited only a small group of spiritual interested people, no people of a religious institution.

    But I have Christian roots. And when somebody maries in church or a funeral ceremony happens in the church the priest uses stuff from the bible.

    So I had a ‘problem’. I am on the way to the ‘Self’ but did not get the stuff from the bible.
    I saw no need to read the bible again, because I have found something valuable for me.

    But later I had the time again and I resolved some allegories of the bible. Later when my grandma died and there had been the funeral ceremony again, there had been a completely different situation.
    I would not say the priest was ‘better’.
    I’d say it is me I have changed. This time the funeral ceremony and the preaching conveyed comfort.


    So yes, nobody needs religions to ‘believe in god’. But to get their ceremonies a little effort is needed to have a look at religions.


    The story of the 12 years old daughter with leukaemia is true. It had been the daughter of a workmate of a good friend.

    But what is different:
    Her father is a Zen master, a Buddhist. He requested audience with the Dalai Lama when it happened. As the father had to inter the body of his daughter he consoled the other family members.
    An actual happy father who has lost his daughter was there for the others.

    And nobody ever had a doubt about his feeling, you just needed to have a look into his eyes.

    These are all stories of life which made me think about…..and the happiness that there IS a way lived by others gave me hope……..

    Today I can say yes. I am. And it feels right.
    I could tell a lot of more stories, it’s my destiny to be confronted with those matters.




    Yeah, Ganesha is a good one, actually and does not represent money.

    This is not the happiness I am talking of. There are opposite meanings in duality, but both are object dependant. (Happiness / unhappiness)
    Both have the same quality, they are not permanent. So both are actually equally meaningless.

    To be perfectly happy means to be without wishes and to be without wishes means to be Self aware.
    The true nature is happiness / bliss. There is nobody who could miss something and everything that is happening is perfect.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  7. sid_16

    sid_16 MDL Giveaway Organiser

    Oct 15, 2011
    2,446
    4,908
    90
    Morality stems from being social. We have been a social species for scores of millenia longer than any religion has existed. The writers of religious texts, raised in social environments, are able to look around and discover what "seems" right. From this come religious morality/ethics. The source of religious morality, and actual morality is the "social contract". If we argue morality exists only because of religion we exclude millions of years of social interaction among our own, and several other species.

    Saying Quran or Bible or Geeta teaches us only to be good and love our neighbor is pure cherry picking.:D

    In my opinion the most negative thing that religion promotes is the doctrine of 'we are right and you are wrong' (though of course, it does not apply to all religions, or all followers of the religions it is classically thought to apply to) - that brings this destruction. As Richard Dawkins wrote "It's important to realize that when two opposite points of view are expressed with equal intensity, the truth does not necessarily lie exactly halfway between them. It is possible for one side to be simply wrong."
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  8. R29k

    R29k MDL GLaDOS

    Feb 13, 2011
    4,717
    4,344
    150
    Not just morality, our entire societal structure is based on someone's opinion. Basic things like clothes, we aren't born with clothes but someone came up with the bright idea to cover themselves. When flaws have been made from inception they are propagated down the ages to what we have now, in some cases things change for the good and some for the worse.
    I have said before than human thinking is flawed which caused some discord here. However somewhere during this propagation of opinions over the ages something got screwed up. Humans became divided by race, religion, language etc. So now when a hive mind mentality would have been beneficial, we are divided and waste resources and end up in conflicts. For me it's a massive waste of an opportunity by our species.
     
  9. Yen

    Yen Admin
    Staff Member

    May 6, 2007
    11,725
    11,853
    340
    No morality does not exist because of religion. That what you really are and that IS the matter of religion exists all the time. That what you really are needs no religion to exist and has existed before religion already.

    "In my opinion the most negative thing that religion promotes is the doctrine of 'we are right and you are wrong' (though of course, it does not apply to all religions, or all followers of the religions it is classically thought to apply to) - that brings this destruction."

    The destruction comes always from the people who don't know who they really are. And they have chosen their 'destructive way'. Another individual that is judging about that can then say the destruction comes from the particular religion.
    In fact it is denying of responsibility.
    I never have said it is easy there are traps. And in the bible there is that mentioned also. There is written that god forgives them who had been wrong IF they TAKE responsibility.

    And another thing, there is no possibility to convey 'right' values to an individual without to say what is right and what is wrong. The same is when a family educates their children. They have to say them what is right and what is wrong, even to educate them.
    That's the reason why the bible has its 10 commandments. It are instructions to live a life which is conform to the 'Self'.
    The values which are conveyed by each religion have only one goal. To let the humans know who they really are.

    There is no absolute right or wrong. Hence there is always something to somebody relative right or relative wrong.
    And this lasts as long as the one is a individual.
    So every-body has his own way with his right's and wrong's
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  10. redroad

    redroad MDL Guru

    Dec 2, 2011
    5,326
    6,016
    180
    #170 redroad, Jul 21, 2012
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2012
    @Yen nice post .. I think we need a 10 commandments 2.0 with thou shalt not take more than what you need added and maybe some nuanced elaboration on thou shall not kill or lie for those who have taken some fabricated moral high ground to justify their actions..:biggrin: oh and some footnotes for "thou shall not bare false witness against thy neighbor" to clarify who is your neighbor..
     
  11. SOCRATE_MMXII

    SOCRATE_MMXII MDL Expert

    Jan 25, 2012
    1,034
    315
    60
    @redroad: my opinion is that "the commandments" did more harm than good, because if you forbid something to someone, then that someone will DO exactly the forbidden thing.

    The 10 commandments come to us from the Sumer civilization > Egyptian civilization > Moses (which, was a pharaoh, btw).

    The ONLY real law as I see it is what Buddha, Jesus, Zoroaster, Zamolxis said: "Love thy neighbor like you love yourself." This LAW doesn't forbid anything, but appeal to the heart.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  12. redroad

    redroad MDL Guru

    Dec 2, 2011
    5,326
    6,016
    180
    Socrate my post was intended to be in the spirit of fun hence the :biggrin:. My position on Christianity and how it was usurped by some and forged to fit their self based agenda would take at least a month to elaborate :hug2:
     
  13. sid_16

    sid_16 MDL Giveaway Organiser

    Oct 15, 2011
    2,446
    4,908
    90
    #173 sid_16, Jul 25, 2012
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2012
    (OP)
    Found something and think it to be worth posting here.
    image
    [​IMG]
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  14. SOCRATE_MMXII

    SOCRATE_MMXII MDL Expert

    Jan 25, 2012
    1,034
    315
    60
    @sid_16 - very sad, but very true. That's why I always say: "follow the message, not the messenger". ;)
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  15. R29k

    R29k MDL GLaDOS

    Feb 13, 2011
    4,717
    4,344
    150
    To be fair you can stick any religion you come across and blood has been shed for it.
     
  16. RawData

    RawData MDL Member

    Mar 4, 2008
    223
    30
    10
    But if you have never been unhappy, happiness is completely alien and unknown to you. You are then neither happy or unhappy, because your mood is always the same. You may call it happiness, but without being able to compare it with unhappiness, it's not actual happiness. Are you suggesting it's possible to be always 100% happy... and know it? That would get boring sooner or later... and then it would not be 100% happiness anymore! :D

    Looks like I need to sleep, but in this hot weather it's only remotely possible. See, happiness is like weather. Warm is nice, but rain or colder weather every now and then makes you appreciate warm days more. No matter how nice warm is, it's not nice forever. :p
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  17. RawData

    RawData MDL Member

    Mar 4, 2008
    223
    30
    10
    Kopism(sp)? Pastafarianism? :D
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  18. SOCRATE_MMXII

    SOCRATE_MMXII MDL Expert

    Jan 25, 2012
    1,034
    315
    60
    @RawData: happiness/unhappiness is just a state of mind. It's just a mind-trick. ;)
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  19. Yen

    Yen Admin
    Staff Member

    May 6, 2007
    11,725
    11,853
    340
    You are completely right, but you are talking about dualistic matters.
    Each individual lives in a dualistic world. Means there is always a counterpart for each thing.

    good/bad
    happy/unhappy
    warm/cold
    black/white
    positive/negative

    Most people say: "Think positive!"
    This sounds to be a good way, but it isn't! It is not better than to say: "Think negative!"
    Why?

    As you already have said. Without to know unhappiness one cannot determine happiness. In other words, happiness becomes unhappiness and unhapiness becomes happiness in time. Or happiness creates unhappiness and unhappiness creates happiness in the time.

    This back and forth CANNOT be satisfying.
    There is something else which makes it possible that you can be happy and unhappy.
    It is you! And being this 'yourSelf' is perfect happiness. This happiness is much much stronger than the relative happiness.

    A happiness which is not related to anyThing. It is real happiness, in fact the only thing that is real, it is you, yourself!!!
    I am sure you have experienced what I mean already....probably a short time only..I don't know....it is the overwhelming feeling that you are, pure being. :)
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  20. 60cent

    60cent MDL Senior Member

    May 31, 2011
    437
    514
    10
    Well i´ve experienced it and many other people say the same thing:
    If you think positive your thoughts will lead to a positive thing/ending,the same means for those who think negative and see only black clouds,they will be sad and nothing good will happen to them.
    Positive wishes,feelings,thoughts...etc will sometimes do more than we think.
    Imo it´s better to stay away from negative people because they drag you down with them,unfortunately now a days there are more negative people and thoughts around us then it should be.o_O
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...