Coronavirus | Discussion

Discussion in 'Serious Discussion' started by Deleted member 1254778, Feb 28, 2020.

  1. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

    Oct 21, 2009
    5,572
    1,496
    180
    Another "high-brow" journalist: who wants to experiment on her-/himself and - "oooppsss, gimme some oxygen pronto!!!" - discover her/his body doesn't do well in the struggle with the virus and perhaps even croak?!?

    Do these geniuses really think so highly of us, so as to want us all infected and then "whoever survives will tell the tale"?!?

    Some thinkers, some strategists these guys are! Tons of empathy, solidarity, good will...

    Have they ever heard of "Do no harm"?!? Any idea what that entails?!?
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  2. Yen

    Yen Admin (retired)
    Staff Member

    May 6, 2007
    13,136
    14,267
    340
    #3862 Yen, Jan 21, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2022
    It's not about to be unable to understand the dialectic of the two notions.

    It's about to keep a clear and rational mind sticking to Science and not to fall for Scientism at times of high emotions and unreasonable fearmongering, that came with the pandemic.
    Would you ever doubt or wait for an exception at -the law of Gravity-? I guess not, you would not lose rationality that much to even consider that.
    To encounter an exception one needs to extend the space of observation. There might be something 'new' at the law of Gravity when it comes to dark matter / dark energy and / or black holes / or even another universe, but not 'on earth'.

    There are observations and when they can be described as an universal principle one can determine a scientific law.
    Together with the history of vaccines to fight respiratory tract related illnesses, which are caused by viruses which do mutate I applied that and posted ALREADY on October 2020
    Applying that law:
    Can you even imagine how I felt that time posting that? Or how I have felt during the pandemic?
    All the people around me have gone mad, leaving rationality. Or was it me being mad? :D

    They took RRR (RelativeRiskReduction) of 95% efficacy to praise the vaccines as holy grail to end the pandemic, although everybody who is involved in studies KNOWS only ARR (AbsoluteRiskReduction) is a value which should be used to assess benefit. And that is only 1% at the Pfizer study.

    And then Omicron came.
    But people still kept up / are keeping up their madness, voting for vaccine mandates for a 2 years old vaccine, as if they actually do not want that the pandemic ends that way and becomes an endemic. Booster after booster as if they could break laws of epidemiology of a respiratory tract related virus that does mutate.

    Recently I can notice that their Scientism falls apart. And that Israeli Professor which you hate so much, is addressing that boldly. It still hurts for you, but not for me.
    I followed the logic of epidemiology and knew that there never had been success to end waves of such by administering vaccines into an ongoing pandemic. I always pleaded to protect the vulnerable ones and to leave the others alone with experimental stuff and all the more the kids.

    I supported the idea to rely on what humankind has already when it comes to a crisis for humankind like this pandemic. AKA to re-purpose established drugs, develop conventional vaccines which have known adjuvants, etc etc...

    And most important: EARLY treatment! Go home and wait, then call the ambulance if things worsen?!?!?

    More and more will be revealed also what they did by bashing ivermectin and co...
    All the side effects of the vaccines which are still hidden, all the manipulations at the Pfizer study, all the weakness of the side effect databases.
    There will be exciting times, let's wait and see.

    I am still convinced Omicron will be a milestone at this pandemic. :)
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  3. zen45

    zen45 MDL Addicted

    Feb 25, 2010
    965
    2,629
    30
    What dont kill you makes you stronger ! im 80 years old had my two vaccine shots in 2021 and my yearly flu shot ! i ware my mask in public do what i think i have to do to protect myself ! but there coming out with more booster shots some are up to five already! thats nuts !
     
  4. MS_User

    MS_User MDL Guru

    Nov 30, 2014
    4,669
    1,374
    150
    did someone say this nuts ;)
     
  5. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

    Oct 21, 2009
    5,572
    1,496
    180
    #3865 gorski, Jan 21, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2022
    @Yen, we are all hoping you are right - but one simply can't know in advance...

    The law you mentioned is not the same as the law of gravity. Let's get this straight! Don't patronise us, please!!! Especially if you are not answering the Qs on the subject (re. Delta and its predecessors)…

    If you are pushing the story towards relativisation of "importance" of principles and data, then you are - as you said - picking and choosing/blocking out which data is "relevant", ergo... see my previous posts...

    Methodologically speaking, you are in rather unsavoury, unsound waters leading to populism!!!

    P.S. Vaccines are 2 year old?!? C'mon, man, pushing it, pushing it... "The COVID-19 outbreak in China was first reported publicly on December 31, 2019." And even so: apparently, with them one is safer, as in the illness is milder...

    P.P.S. An 11 year old in Croatia has died, no comorbidities... Stay tuned... Not good news in any direction...
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  6. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

    Oct 21, 2009
    5,572
    1,496
    180
    We are wearing masks to protect others from ourselves and vice versa...

    In Israel they had started the second booster = 4 shots altogether, so I have no idea what you are talking about re. 5....?!?
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  7. spanishfly

    spanishfly MDL Senior Member

    Dec 5, 2018
    365
    540
    10
    You've heard of hypochondria?
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  8. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

    Oct 21, 2009
    5,572
    1,496
    180
    You really need to re-think!!! CAREFULLY!!!

    Taking a liberty too far.jpg
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  9. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

    Oct 21, 2009
    5,572
    1,496
    180
    #3869 gorski, Jan 22, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2022
    Here is another element I keep mentioning:

    https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1484433127049211904

    Naga Munchetty - People in Wales will be wondering why the restrictions haven't been eased like in England? Mark Drakeford(FM Wales) - We do things in line with the science.. we are a govt that doesn't need to grab headlines to distract attention.. #BBCBreakfast

    This is what it looks like, when you do the RIGHT and not a POPULIST BS thing:

    UK map of C-19 cases currently.jpg

    In fact, I would urge you all to carefully re-think, whomever "thinks" this is all just a stupid power game somehow...

    https://twitter.com/helmsinki/status/1484289051775623173

    Just have a look at the exchanges there, about "'mild Omicron' or not" point...
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  10. Yen

    Yen Admin (retired)
    Staff Member

    May 6, 2007
    13,136
    14,267
    340
    #3870 Yen, Jan 22, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2022
    As mentioned already. All the vaccines got / get EUA. And humankind never encountered a mass administration of EUA'd vaccines (and drugs).
    And when it comes to the question: What happens after a certain period of time? You have to observe THAT period of time. Time cannot be replaced by money, by large cohorts, by telescoping Phases.
    When we developed dugs we had to do a 2 years tox study in animals before we even were allowed to administrate it to humans.
    So one could now say vaccines are no classical drugs.

    Yes and no. One has to have a look at all ingredients.
    The genetic mRNA ones provide a blueprint to the cells machinery. Therefore the genetic material is inside of a lipid nano particle. This particle enters human body, delivers the mRNA and gets metabolised somehow. So it behaves like a drug.
    mRNA generally, though, is known by human body. mRNAs are used all the time by human body to make proteins.
    So we now have the antigen made, the S protein of the virus. This is foreign, but a part of the virus.

    At Novavax we have the antigen already. But instead of a lipid capsule for delivery of mRNA we have the S protein onto a VLP (VirusLikeParticle) and an own adjuvant, Matrix M. This Matrix M also enters human body and gets metabolised somehow.
    IMHO a tox study is mandatory here as well.
    OK we need to get more info about Matrix M. It's been used at flu vaccine research before: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23384754/
    This is a study in mice. But no safety study. It's about efficacy as enhancer.

    Matrix M has a natural source. 2 fractions of an extract of the plant Quillaja saponaria Molina (German: Seifenrindenbaum) https://www.gelbe-liste.de/wirkstoffe/SARS-CoV-2-Spike-Glycoprotein-trimer-NVX-CoV2373_56346
    https://www.jimmunol.org/content/146/2/431
    BUT: (I did synthetic drug design and moved later to photochemical drugs). It does not matter if you develop a synthetic drug / meds or a photochemical (plant based) drugs. A full development requires exactly the same concerning safety and efficacy.

    I found no tox study of either the adjuvant or the nano particles used at mRNA vaccines. I know in theory both types of those substances. Concerning tox I would prefer Matrix M over the nano particles, although I cannot reason it providing studies.
    But the major reason not to use mRNA is the new kind of delivery and lack of experiences and knowledge what it exactly does in human body..

    Valneva: We have the antigen, which is here the entire inactivated virus. And 2 adjuvants. Alum, which is established, and CpG 1018. The latter is used at an already fully approved (no EUA) for adults (since February 2021) vaccine Heplisav-B https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32988213/

    So only considering what I have found and posted here so far I'd prefer Valneva over Novavax, because one adjuvant is established, the other already used (but not a very long time) at a fully approved vaccine and not an EUA'd one.



    Yes, that's right. What finally will happen I cannot know. But it's reasonable. (My answer 'zoonotic virus' below of this post).

    Yes they are 2 years old. All them are based on original wuhan-Hu-1 variant's spike of December 2019, some of them have the D614G mutation already in them.

    Even the 'New' Novavax vaccine is 2 years old:
    https://www.nejm.org/doi/10.1056/NEJMoa2116185

    I took the law of Gravity deliberately to have a 'high contrast' at first place. Although it is a law which everybody knows (Gravity is obvious) there can be still 'places' where it does not apply.
    The same is true for any other law.
    To observe an exception of law one has to extend the space of observation.

    But since we do not 'leave' the space of observation which is infection of human body it is reasonable to apply it to predict what happens to humans.
    We even can apply it (SARS-CoV-2 is a zoonotic virus) to animals.
    "The evolution of virus is to become more contagious, but less virulent."
    But then it applies to a certain animal. What that means for humans is another question.

    The only way I can think of that this law will be seemingly broken is:
    It jumps onto an animal. Mutates there according to law. Gets there more contagious and less virulent while infecting other animals.

    Then it jumps back to humans, but there it turns out to be more virulent / dangerous for humans.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  11. ipx

    ipx MDL Addicted

    May 24, 2017
    774
    738
    30
    #3871 ipx, Jan 22, 2022
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2022
    .
     
  12. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

    Oct 21, 2009
    5,572
    1,496
    180
    #3872 gorski, Jan 22, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2022
    @Yen, the Chinese have mapped the virus 2 years ago - and then the vaccines were made the next day?

    "High contrast" = huge difference ==> NOT THE SAME BY ANY STRETCH OF IMAGINATION!!! You're twisting and turning but we can see it for what it is - stretching it, according to your agenda, a wrong narrative!

    P.S. One of the first recipients of Pfizer vaccine in the UK had a bad reaction to an ingredient - but it is something that is used in surgeries, so generally known to be safe for a long time... But of course, there will be somebody who is allergic to it... Minuscule numbers of people!
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  13. Yen

    Yen Admin (retired)
    Staff Member

    May 6, 2007
    13,136
    14,267
    340
    The vaccines are based on the original wuhan variant and never have been updated. The antigen is from a 2 years old sequence!
    Of course their production date is more recent.
    It's like you would vaccinate against flu from season 2019! Don't know what is here hard to understand.

    The 'high contrast' is the space where it is true. (I named where is can become invalid).
    But law is law. It is true dependent on space of observation. And that applies to all scientific laws.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  14. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

    Oct 21, 2009
    5,572
    1,496
    180
    No, it's not difficult to understand that you keep stretching your narrative as far as you possibly can, thereby when you need it - it's OK not to qualify your statements or to just "be a bit imprecise", just enough to nudge things into your desired direction...

    No, not all laws are the same. Some laws have been found to be of limited validity in a specialised space etc. Non-typical maths or geometry come to mind...
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  15. Yen

    Yen Admin (retired)
    Staff Member

    May 6, 2007
    13,136
    14,267
    340
    I see no conflict there. :)
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  16. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

    Oct 21, 2009
    5,572
    1,496
    180
    We call that a slippery slope... A night in which all cows are - black, strangely...
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  17. Yen

    Yen Admin (retired)
    Staff Member

    May 6, 2007
    13,136
    14,267
    340
    That's why we are here and communicate and put a light on things from different perspectives. :)
    Delta and its predecessors.
    Yes Delta was the most harmful variant since it caused most of victims.
    Anyway the HKU study already showed less replication down the lung compared to original wuhan.
    The vaccines have most efficacy on wuhan since it's based on wuhan spike and lost effectiveness at the further variants and at Omicron actually completely.

    And many more things to consider. I can live saying delta did not show significantly that this law already is observable clearly. (How many got wuhan and were protected by vaccines already so it showed up wuhan is milder than delta)
    Also considering the fact that during evolution a more dangerous variant can temporarily pop-up. But that does not mean the evolutionary goal to become endemic is void by that.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  18. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

    Oct 21, 2009
    5,572
    1,496
    180
    Hedge-betting...
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  19. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

    Oct 21, 2009
    5,572
    1,496
    180
    @Yen, please have a look and tell me what you think...

    Utah C-19 hospitalisation rates by age: babies are by far the most hospitalised group...

    Utah C-19 hospitalisation of age groups.jpg
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  20. spanishfly

    spanishfly MDL Senior Member

    Dec 5, 2018
    365
    540
    10
    #3880 spanishfly, Jan 23, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2022
    So much useful content here (at least for me)

    As of this week, my friends in Australia have the chance to get Novavax. It just got approval with 100% of the initial allotment of vaccine exclusively dedicated to the unvaccinated Australians.
    Several of the Australians (vaxxed and unvaxed) I know have had Omicron. For whatever reason--maybe because it's summer down there--Omicron was a big nothing! One of the unvaxxed felt a bit "funny" for a few hours. One of the double-dose Pfizer-BioNTech vaccinated people had a sore throat for two days.

    I will next read the papers you linked to for Valneva's adjuvants. If I was conspiratorial minded, I would wonder why the UK "spat the dummy" in Q4 2021 and cancelled their order for Valneva. It's probably no more complicated than that it's developed by French biotechnology company.
    I assume Valneva is also based on he original wuhan variant. ??

    Q1:
    Do you have corporate insight as to why none of the vaccine producers have updated from the original wuhan variant?
    I seem to recall the big "selling point" for these experimental vaccines was there touted "adaptable". They were presented as having a highly flexible production capability that would be able to rapidly respond to any mutations. My cynical self thinks there isn't any economic motivation for them to improve their product. All the worlds governments are buying wuhan vaccine 1.0 like it was candy, so why bother.

    Q2:
    [Edit] I asked the need for vaccination after developing natural immunity to Omicron for an unvaccinated person, but the truth doesn't really matter. The person asking lives in "fotress Australia", a country where vaccination is essentially a requirement for most employment. They'll soon exit the self-selected "control group" and get Novavax'd. At least it is Novavax!

    If anyone is wondering about getting vaxxed after having covid
    https://www.bmj.com/content/374/bmj.n2101
    A large study in the UK and another that surveyed people internationally found that people with a history of SARS-CoV-2 infection experienced greater rates of side effects after vaccination. Among 2000 people who completed an online survey after vaccination, those with a history of covid-19 were 56% more likely to experience a severe side effect that required hospital care.

    Patrick Whelan, of UCLA, says the “sky high” antibodies after vaccination in people who were previously infected may have contributed to these systemic side effects. “Most people who were previously ill with covid-19 have antibodies against the spike protein. If they are subsequently vaccinated, those antibodies and the products of the vaccine can form what are called immune complexes,” he explains, which may get deposited in places like the joints, meninges, and even kidneys, creating symptoms.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...