Cogito ergo sum. Descartes famous words. What do they actually mean to us?

Discussion in 'Serious Discussion' started by SOCRATE_MMXII, Aug 30, 2012.

  1. IXMas

    IXMas MDL Member

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    #501 IXMas, Nov 14, 2021
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2021
    These are all needs of the body such as food, clothing, home, family, friendships, position, fame, security, survival.

    When the mind installs itself in "I am" without moving, you enter a state that you can only say that you are in it. The only thing is to train continuously.
    After all, "I am" is always with you, you do not grasp it because you have superimposed a number of things on it: body, feelings, thoughts, ideas, internal and external properties, and so on.
    They are all self-identifying infidels. Because of them, you take yourself for what you are not.

    Of course, everything experienced is an experience, and in every experience there is the one who does it. Memory creates the illusion of continuity. In fact, for every experience there is an experiencer, and the sense of identity is implicit in all experimenter-experienced relationships, as the constant factor that unites them. Both identity and continuity vary. Memory makes them different, the essence, identical. This essence is the root and foundation of all experience, its perennial "possibility" outside of space and time.
     
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  2. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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    @Yen, we are constantly evolving and that process, becoming/verden is something you do not get into account!

    What we do, as Humans, is appropriate Nature for ourselves and this is the only way we can know "the other", in that engagement, thereby co-creating ourselves and our world. "Mystical unity" of "things as they simply are" just by rolling your eyes back, smoking dope and mumbling "Ohmmmm" will get you NOWHERE!!!

    Forget about the "mystical unity" BS without such an effort! There is only the unity that we come to when we realise we are the creators of our world, the Human world, as we engage with it. We can know no other world but the one we reach into and engage with. All else is poppycock!

    We can engage it in a scientific or technological or agricultural or ecological etc. manner but we MUST engage it. Otherwise we know jack s**t about it!

    Hegel starts with a speculative position, which is a unifying position, which he then develops and then, at the end of all that development in History/Geschichte, brings it all back together again - but this is not what you imagine it to be! There is a lot of work involved!
     
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  3. case-sensitive

    case-sensitive MDL Expert

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    i know that i know nothing ......
     
  4. IXMas

    IXMas MDL Member

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    Correct the focus of attention. Your mind identifies with objects, people, ideas, but never with yourself. Focus, become aware of the existence that is yours. See how it works, examine the motives and effects of your actions. Scan the prison you've built around yourself, inadvertently. By seeing what you are not, you will discover who you are. The way back to who you are is through rejection and denial. There is a certainty, the real is real, it is not an imaginary product of the mind.
    Even the "I am" is discontinuous, while being a valuable indicator, it signals where to look, not what. Look at it carefully and you will see that as soon as you are persuaded that you cannot say anything reliable about yourself except "I am", and that nothing you can indicate is you, the very need for "I am" will fail, and you will stop verbalizing who you are. You have to get rid of the tendency to define yourself. The definitions apply only to the body and its expressions. If you release yourself from the obsession with the body, you will spontaneously return to your natural state.
    The only difference between us is that I am aware of my natural state while you are confused. Just as the gold of jewels has no more value than gold in powder other than for the value that the mind imposes on it, so we, in being, are identical, and only appearance makes us different. We find out if we are serious, investigating, questioning ourselves day after day, moment by moment, dedicating our whole life to discovery.
     
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  5. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    #505 Yen, Nov 26, 2021 at 21:13
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2021 at 21:31
    You did not get what I mean or you are evading....

    It's about that what I named form-identity (male, father, philosopher, husband, Serbo-Croat, that age, owner of this and that...) 'how' and what you are when you are awake.
    This identity does not even exist 24/7!

    When you are awake you are 'gorski' and YOU are.
    When you are in deep sleep 'gorski' does not exist anyway YOU are.
    When you are dreaming you are for instance a wizard, but 'gorski' does not exist, away YOU are.

    So if you try now to say that is BS then you should not forget that you cannot 'think' about it when you are awake. You have to be in that state and ask the question THERE to get a valid answer. Does 'gorski' exist? (when you are dreaming, or in deep sleep).

    To avoid misunderstanding in advance.
    I use the term existence = an object of identification that emerges as form.

    And I use "YOU are" = being

    What is 'YOU'?
    Subject? The Self? Absolute spirit?
    'That' to which awake state and dream state 'happen' and 'that' what is in deep sleep what it is.

    So when you are experienced in meditation you clearly recognize that this definition of existence is real.

    It requires thoughts and concepts in order to exist as 'gorski' and it requires other thoughts and concepts to exist as a wizard when dreaming.
    And when the thoughts are gone and stillness arises you get aware of 'that' what is in deep-sleep, but there one is unconscious about.

    The subject without name. I AM
     
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  6. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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    Oh, Yen... C'mon, man... I haven't explained this once here and I DO know what you mean...
     
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  7. case-sensitive

    case-sensitive MDL Expert

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    And i think all three of you are talking s**t ...... personal subjective s**t .............. like litte egoistic kids ............ ' Look at me i'm clever ' ...... and ...... ' My fantasy / games are better than yours ' ...... boasting about what you claim to know .


    >This identity does not even exist 24/7! When you are awake you are 'gorski' and YOU are. When you are in deep sleep 'gorski' does not exist anyway YOU are. When you are dreaming you are for instance a wizard, but 'gorski' does not exist, away YOU are.

    What a load of bollocks . YOU are YOU when your awake and when your asleep . The difference is what your concentrating on = Where your consciousness / awareness is looking / not looking . The difference your talking about is in memory afterwards . Maybe that we play our game differently when we're asleep ......... but its still us playing .......... with different prioritys .

    am i me = the person thats looking ?

    Or am i the things i do , the clothes i wear ?
     
  8. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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    Leave it out, m8, you're gonna do yourself an injury...
     
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  9. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    You are funny! :)
    You are saying "what a load of bollocks..." And then you reason it the way I did. YOU are YOU. OR I AM
    Yes the difference is like you have expressed it: "The difference is what your concentrating on = Where your consciousness / awareness is looking / not looking"

    I just put it in other words:"It requires thoughts and concepts in order to exist as 'gorski' and it requires other thoughts and concepts to exist as a wizard when dreaming."

    It isn't just a looking at! It is identifying AS....
    Next time when you are dreaming and YOU take another form of identity check out if it is 'a looking at' or rather a being identified with! Is there something 'unreal' or dreamlike WITHIN the dream state?

    In other words Question your dream reality while you are dreaming!
    It is as real as YOU taking your form of identity in real life.
    Only your thoughts about it when awake are just like :" It was just a dream".

    The 'YOU' is the underlying consciousness and precondition to become dream identity and awake identity.
     
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  10. case-sensitive

    case-sensitive MDL Expert

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    I am me when i'm awake and when i'm asleep . I know i'm me and i ' think ' like me . The only difference is how much brain , what functions are working and how much or how little they are working .. ( Same when i'm drunk :) )

    Did you try lucid dreaming ? :) = Knowing / being aware that your asleep when your asleep .......... and knowing / being aware that what your experiencing is a dream ? ...... and stear it :)

    Did you try continual meditation ....... nach plan ........ to reach a goal ? ........... and then go to sleep in the meditation state ,...... and the meditation view point and the search and the goal remain the same ?

    >I just put it in other words:"It requires thoughts and concepts in order to exist as 'gorski' and it requires other thoughts and concepts to exist as a wizard when dreaming."

    Thats cute :) .......... doesnt the same aply when people are drunk ? ....... same person , different way of looking at it ?


    If i meditate and strip my consciousness down ...... the last thing thats left is ............ i am that that watches and decides .
     
  11. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    #511 Yen, Nov 28, 2021 at 03:10
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2021 at 03:29
    When meditation is integrated into one's life, the dream state and the awake state's mental difference becomes less and less. The first thing I noticed that I need less and less sleep.

    Then I noticed that I have more and more 'choices' when I am dreaming, I don't have to play a passive role, and yes the dreams become lucid.

    Those are byproducts of meditation. And one recognizes that there is no difference of dream and awake state as related to what is 'real'. YOU is creating thoughts and concepts of identity. YOU=YOU but the thoughts and concepts are changing.

    That's part of the progress when mediation leads to what is called awakening (besides of other terms). It 'assumes' that that what we call awake state is still a dream. A dream because both states have in common to create forms of identities.
    This assumption is a mental approach until it is experienced as reality in meditation.


    Measurement:
    Of course each state comes with observable attributes which can be measured. REM sleep (dreaming) comes with RapidEyeMovement.

    Brain waves. Yes mental states have certain patterns. A particular state comes with its particular patterns.
    But don't confuse brain with consciousness. Or home of it.:D

    It applies to any state as long as YOU create forms of identity. When you are drunk your idea of yourself and the world are 'altered'. :D

    The state of consciousness determines how you experience yourself and the world.

    You even don't have to get drunk. Your state of consciousness takes influence on how you perceive the world. Every day!

    And even more your thinking about future and past while ignoring what you are presently doing has a huge influence on how's life.


    When you take the so called hallucinogenics such as LSD you maybe stop creating forms of identity. You experience the YOU the I AM the same one experiences in stillness at meditation.:)
    But there you are very clear, present and really awake. You really do what you are doing.

    And you get that joy at working does not emerge from the work itself. The presence at working brings in the joy. That is a really amazing thing I experienced after some years of sporadic meditation!
    (In other words: If work sux or not solely depends on your state of presence while doing it!)

    By the way do you know nested dreams?
    You are dreaming and you know it. Then you are waking up from that dream but it is still another dream!
    And then you wake up but this time you are sure you are awake.....until you are 'really' awake and have to notice that the last one was also still a dream.
    I know 3 nested dreams....that's weird.:D OK there is still the last one (the 'awake' condition)....sometimes more sometimes less...
     
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  12. nodnar

    nodnar MDL Expert

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    omg. you guys are getting way too philosophical for a sophist like me, even when sober.
     
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  13. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    Nah, just talking about what meditation 'changed' in life. :)

    The sleep states always attracted me as a subject of own research. When I was a kid already. I for instance tried to 'spot' the moment when I was in bed and went sleeping to spot the moment when sleep starts. :D
    I wanted to know 'when'.:D
    Later in my life then I recognized that this observation, aware presence and meditation are actually not different.

    I practiced Raja Yoga at a teacher.....then I forgot about it a long time.....I read several spiritual teachers, integrated meditation into life, but periodically only.

    Nowadays also because of current situation (pandemic, lock-downs), I returned to it. Extending the moments where I am present, pulling the anchor that drags be back, to 'alert presence'....it comes with peacefulness, joy, and less moments of total reactionary unawareness. It's important to have such an anchor especially at those times.

    There are many forms of it, many people just go for a walk out in nature, forest where is natural silence. Also to become present of the now. The joy you get there, the stillness and peacefulness (if you still can) have the same origin. :)
     
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  14. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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    And all of it empty of any meaning, any content, between solipsism and positivism, something long overcome, tons of empty tautology...

    Go study before you... arrghhh... Jesus Marx wept...
     
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  15. Mr.X

    Mr.X MDL Guru

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    Miserable payaso... ;)
     
  16. Mr.X

    Mr.X MDL Guru

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    This sounds beautiful Yen. Where I live there's no forest at all but we have the ocean and beach not far away. I can go to a solitary place and meditate too, it's great.
     
  17. Tiger-1

    Tiger-1 MDL Guru

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    same here at least ~30 years or more... :D
     
  18. IXMas

    IXMas MDL Member

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    If you are a fan of theories then I invite you to stay on this article because you will hear some good ones (where beautiful does not mean convincing, or particularly logical, but certainly BEAUTIFUL)

    The emptiness of deep sleep depends on the absence of specific memories, but a widespread memory of well-being has not disappeared. It is a very different feeling that makes me recognize "I slept soundly", rather than "I was absent". In sleep, the body functions below the level of brain consciousness.
    Does it make me remember my deep sleep? Of course! By eliminating the spaces of warning during wakefulness, you will gradually also overcome the long interval of mental absence that you call sleep. And you will be aware that you are sleeping.

    I would like to clarify my terms, by asleep, I mean non-conscious, for awake, conscious, for dream state, conscious of the mind, not of the external environment.
    For me it is the same, with only one difference. You, in each of the three states, are oblivious to the other two, while for me there is only one state, which includes waking, dreaming and deep sleep.

    What are our dreams? Echoes of wakefulness. And in deep sleep? Brain consciousness is suspended. Are we conscious? We ignore what is around, yes. But we remain aware that we are unconscious. Aware and conscious don't they mean the same thing?

    Awareness is primal, it is the original state, without beginning, without end, not caused, not sustained, without parts, or change. Consciousness is by contact, the reflection on a surface, a state of duality. There can be no consciousness without awareness, but there can be awareness without consciousness, as in deep sleep. Awareness is absolute, consciousness is relative to its content, consciousness is always of something, it is partial and changeable. Awareness is total, unchanging, calm and silent. The common matrix for every experience.

    If reality is always with us even in deep sleep, what does self-realization consist of?
    Realization is the opposite of ignorance. Taking the world as real and the self as unreal is ignorance, which causes pain. Grasping the self as the only reality, and the transience of everything else, is freedom, peace and joy. It's very simple. Instead of seeing things as you imagine them, learn to see them as they are. When you know how to see everything as it is, you will also see yourself as you are. It's like cleaning a mirror. The same mirror that shows you the world as it is, will also show you your true face. The thought "I am" is the rag that cleans. Use it.
     
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  19. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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    To a fool anyone reasonable would look like a fool...:rolleyes:
     
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  20. nodnar

    nodnar MDL Expert

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    :g: i suppose the old walrus is the fool here and you are the reasonable person...;)
     
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