Coronavirus | Discussion

Discussion in 'Serious Discussion' started by Deleted member 1254778, Feb 28, 2020.

  1. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    I tried to presume how the majority would understand those values which are presented and how the 'impression' changes when other values are considered.
    The most impressing difference, though, is at the vaccines (3rd example) RRR and ARR.

    Most people I know think efficacy of 95% means they are 95% protected and there's only a risk of 5% to get COVID, followed by percentages above 50% of unvaxxed being hospitalized means they protect.
    First example.
    One could say extrapolation is not a point. One can relate all to the amount of the smallest group, then there is no extrapolation.

    Yes that is right. The relatively most affected group is the babies <=1 years still. (It ever has been).
    But 45 compared to 32 (second highest peak group) looks different as 4.5 compared to 3.2. (Human perception always takes differences more than relations).
    The maker of the graphs did want to have a greater difference. I do allege that otherwise there would be no extrapolation.
    The other strong effect that if one hospitalized patient is leaving at each group, remains, though.
     
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  2. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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    #3922 gorski, Jan 28, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2022
    And you are basing this "interpretation" of yours on... what - your impression?

    Btw, never mind vaccines, because "being infected is the best defence against C-19 infection", eh? Tell it to the huge percentages of people infected with Omicron, please, who have had Delta... Well, there goes that theory...

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ce-global-vaccination-levels-reckless-experts

    Lifting England Covid rules while 3bn people unvaccinated reckless – experts
    Scientists warn Boris Johnson that failure means new Covid variants will put thousands of lives at risk across UK
     
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  3. Mr.X

    Mr.X MDL Guru

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    A customer called yesterday for computer service.

    He told he got covid, today it's been eight days coursing the illness.
    He's doing good but the first two days the oxygen desaturation was horrible along with his recent, 2 yrs, high blood pressure.

    Unvaccinated? Nope.
    He got two Pfizer jabs.

    His wife is showing symptoms too since yesterday.
    Fully vaccinated as well.

    Covid prior vaccination?
    Nope, never ever before.

    :eek:
     
  4. spanishfly

    spanishfly MDL Senior Member

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    #3924 spanishfly, Jan 28, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2022
    Statistics is defined by https://www.britannica.com/science/statistics as the science of collecting, analyzing, presenting, and interpreting data.

    Clearly expressed, mathematically derived analysis presenting an interpretatoin of the data we have to date is disparaged by you as an "impression".

    Ok, that's fine. A lot of scientific geniuses, especially self-proclaimed ones, are arrogant jerks.
    Lets see your like-for-like scientific counter-argument...
    An actual counter-argument based on statistics? Do you have this?
    You know, the formula's and mathematics you've used to show how you've reached your own interpretion of the available data...
    ??

    All I see as your "counter argument" is a large font sized "shouty" headline pointing at a fluff-piece, click-bate article quoting "experts"

    Ok, let's bring this discussion down to that level.

    Having SARS-CoV-2 once confers much greater immunity than a vaccine—but vaccination remains vital
    https://www.science.org/content/art...er-immunity-vaccine-vaccination-remains-vital
    "A version of this story appeared in Science, Vol 373, Issue 6559"
    Israelis who had an infection were more protected against the Delta coronavirus variant than those who had an already highly effective COVID-19 vaccine.
    The article contains a smattering of statistical analysis, but if you find that too complcated, you can skip over that bit and still understand it.

    Oh wait, oops! More pesky occupiers. Sorry, comrade :jockey:
     
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  5. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    #3925 Yen, Jan 28, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2022
    While you keep on cluttering your mind with crappy MSM even the CDC's recent study acknowledges powerful natural immunity after infection.
    BTW Immunity never prevents infections / reinfections. It is impossible! And if it would happen our immune system would not learn by it at all! An infection / reinfection is precondition to train it.
    Immunity prevents from getting sick.

    https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7104e1.htm#T1_down
    https://stacks.cdc.gov/view/cdc/113253
    https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/pdfs/mm7104e1-H.pdf

    If you want to have it moderated because you cannot read stats on your own and recognize extrapolation as a way to create fictive absolute values.

    "Excellent natural immunity confirmed"




    BTW I was right saying the data have been extrapolated to100K
    Since you won't find that age group <=1year because it is very unusual even at demographics I took the births of one year. The most recent I could find is 2019.

    In 2019, there were 46,826 live births in Utah.
    https://www.marchofdimes.org/peristats/ViewSubtopic.aspx?reg=49&top=2&stop=1&lev=1&slev=4&obj=1

    So the graph you got fooled by just has more than doubled the babies which should have been hospitalized by extrapolating it to a more than doubled fictive number.

    Off to the next horror, gorski. I wonder how you can stand all this, it must not be easy for you.:D

    Here you are!
    BA.2 has the potential to displace Omicron, the ancestral origin.
    And did you know that the researchers had problems to categorize it because it's a lot of mutations?

    But will it stay that mild???? Another sleepless night even weeks for you...:rolleyes:

    They finally agreed to put it into the Omicron family still...
    Even the WHO is saying:
    End of pandemic in Europe ‘plausible’ after Omicron, says WHO
    https://www.timesofisrael.com/end-of-pandemic-in-europe-plausible-after-omicron-says-who/
     
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  6. MS_User

    MS_User MDL Guru

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    all i see is a fly on the wall:rolleyes:
     
  7. Mr.X

    Mr.X MDL Guru

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    Yeah it's you in front of a mirror ;)
     
  8. Dave_Ru

    Dave_Ru MDL Novice

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    #3928 Dave_Ru, Jan 29, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2022
    @gorski
    "...Tell it to the huge percentages of people infected with Omicron, please, who have had Delta... Well, there goes that theory..."

    I had Delta. Not worse than a common flu. For my mother (approaching 80) it was much worse to be honest, but nothing like it's been perpetrated by the media, same for other people on my 5000 people small town.

    We've been in close contact to a lot of people in supermarkets, drugstores etc. Never got omicron, I think I'm almost trying to get it and can't :)

    I still wonder how many people were killed by Remdesivir and subnutrition / lack of vitamin D / C in the hospitals. They got a financial incentive in the US to do it, I wonder what's the case in Eu countries, must be a state secret. On my country the number of deaths from fires during the Summer was a state secret ... The lies of the media regarding this so called pandemic are probably no different, it's criminal...
    I'm appaled how many seemingly normall inteligent people still can't see this, but they're waking up...
    Look at the truckers convoy in Canada.. Growing in numbers... Just hope they don't make some false flag, like they tried to do in Austria, or did in Brussels...
     
  9. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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    #3929 gorski, Jan 29, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2022
    Heh, right: some front row practitioners of medicine, plus experts in the field looking at their data and warnings - they are all ignoramuses but a few keyboard warriors know it all, right? Shoooottt...

    Here's a bit about "numbers only" story: https://www.theguardian.com/news/da...ould-use-to-fight-anti-vaccine-misinformation

    Australia is raising noises about its 40-odd deaths this week, while many times smaller Croatia has way over 80, "bettered" only by world leaders Bosnia and Herzegovina with 89 and so on. I follow closely the situation in the Balkans and I can tell you for sure: the looser the rules and/or "customary" behaviour - the worse the outcome, without a shadow of doubt! No ifs or buts. "We live normally here, in the BiH", some of them tell me. Sure and what's the outcome?!? Well, the more cases, the more excess deaths. The greater the rejection of vaccinations, the greater the number of excess deaths! Period! No magic there! This kills. Aplenty! Try to minimise that!
     
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  10. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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    Btw, here's a bit of "great news" for C-19 roulette "gamers"... Enjoy!

    https://www.bbc.com/news/health-60154398

    The study is small but I know very well from my family how this "functions"...

    Long Covid: Hidden lung damage spotted on scans
    By Smitha Mundasad
    Health reporter

    Published
    3 hours ago

    Long Covid lungs damage.jpg
    [​IMG]
    Image source, Oxford University
    Image caption,
    The larger areas of darkness on patients' Xenon scans could represent lung abnormalities

    Some people with long Covid may have hidden damage to their lungs, a small pilot study in the UK suggests.

    Scientists used a novel xenon gas scan method to pick up lung abnormalities not identified by routine scans.

    They focused on 11 people who had not required hospital care when they first caught Covid but experienced long-lasting breathlessness after their initial infection.

    A larger, more detailed study is under way to confirm the results.

    The work builds on an earlier study that looked at people who had been admitted to hospital with Covid.

    Researchers say the findings shed some light on why breathlessness is so common in long Covid - though the reasons for feeling short of breath are often many and complex.

    Long Covid refers to a host of symptoms that continue for many weeks after a coronavirus infection and cannot be explained by another cause.

    'The oxygen journey'

    The team, from Oxford, Sheffield, Cardiff and Manchester compared xenon gas scans and other lung-function tests in three groups of people.

    This included people with long Covid and breathlessness who had not been admitted to hospital when infected, 12 people who had been admitted to hospital with Covid but did not have long Covid, and 13 healthy people as "controls".

    Using the novel approach, all participants inhaled xenon gas during a magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) scan.

    The gas behaves in a very similar way to oxygen but can be traced visually during scans, so scientists were able to "see" how well it moved from the lungs into the blood stream - a crucial step in transporting oxygen around the body.

    Researchers found for the majority of people with long Covid, gas transfer was less effective than in healthy controls.

    People who had been admitted to hospital for Covid had similar abnormalities.

    Lead researcher and lung specialist Dr Emily Fraser said it was frustrating having people coming into clinic and not being able to explain to them exactly why it was that they were breathless. Often X-rays and CT scans show no abnormalities.

    "This is important research and I really do hope this will shed more light on that."

    But she added: "It is important people know that rehabilitation strategies and breathing retraining can be really helpful.

    "When we see people in clinic who are breathless we can make progress."

    The study's co-chief investigator, Prof Fergus Gleeson, said: "There are now important questions to answer, such as, how many patients with long Covid will have abnormal scans, the significance of the abnormality we've detected, the cause of the abnormality, and its longer-term consequences.

    "Once we understand the mechanisms driving these symptoms, we will be better placed to develop more effective treatments."

    The paper is a pre-print and has not yet been through the formal process of peer review.
     
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  11. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    #3931 Yen, Jan 29, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2022
    @spanishfly
    ATM I am trying to get more about the Novavax vaccine.
    I finally found the WHO background document:

    https://apps.who.int/iris/bitstream...kground-2021.1-eng.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

    I only went over it briefly so far.
    2 things:
    Old wuhan-Hu confirmed.

    Toxicology:
    No single dose tox, no long term tox, but repeat-dose toxicity.
    And
    Something about the Matrix adjuvant development (2014)
    https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1586/erv.11.25#

    If I should find more I'll post it. Will probably ask my boss for assistance, too. :)

    This statement has more exceptions than it applies for Omicron.

    For all those who have got COVID already, there is nothing better than the excellent natural immunity. Any additional vaccination adds only risks!
    Omicron: Death rate naturally far lower: https://forums.mydigitallife.net/threads/coronavirus-discussion.81224/page-189#post-1717036

    No significance in protecting from getting hospitalized anymore. Provided a huge study.
    And: Waning rate. After 10 weeks of last jab significant decrease. Booster approach actually useless, have a look at Israel.

    So what's actually left from this statement?
    Vaccines for the vulnerable (uncontrolled diabetes, obesity, immuno-compromised, cancer, etc etc) only, except they have natural immunity already.

    And how the new vaccines and drugs are really performing is still not fully disclosed!!! I wonder why!
    To call them experimental is obvious and surprises are possible.

    Covid-19 vaccines and treatments: we must have raw data, now
    https://www.bmj.com/content/376/bmj.o102


    Instead of posting click-bait headline it would be better to do something constructive and to look at the reasons for it why we have such a huge amount of long covid untreated!

    Hint: Refusing treatments based on re-purposed drugs and lack of investments of govts at this filed of research! Vaccines Vaccines Vaccines.....:rolleyes:

    "I-RECOVER Management Protocol for Long Haul COVID-19 Syndrome (LHCS)"

    Only front line doctors are doing that on their own. And they have a good success rate already.
    Do they get support from officials? No! NO new drugs involved, not much money to make!

    If I should get long COVID (actually not seen at Omicon so far), I know what to do. A shame that others cannot or don't.
    https://covid19criticalcare.com/covid-19-protocols/i-recover-protocol/
     
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  12. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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    #3932 gorski, Jan 29, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2022
    Yen, this has nothing to do with "untreated" but difficult if not impossible to treat cases - at least in some cases, from what I can see! What's a "good rate of success"? So, you would sacrifice everyone else who would succumb to it for this "good rate" of recovery - IF they succeed - in SOME cases?!? Unlike you I am not so gallant to gamble with other people's lives so frivolously and in a dismissive manner, from on high, based on your understanding of statistics, always partial and flawed (unless, of course, you want to claim you are a god)...

    This has NOTHING to do with clickbait - unless this illness is invented for profit...:rolleyes: I told you my half-brother has it. What do you think, what's it like not to be able to walk for 50m or climb a few stairs?!? Or you can't care less? After all, he is/they are in "too statistically insignificant numbers"?!? Have you any idea what that kind of an "argument" makes scientists look like?!? It's actually merciful and really good some of you guys have no power to decide on the issues of public health policies!!! Such guys can't see Humans for s**t! To you they are obscured by numbers! Too mad to use words at this point...:mad:
     
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  13. R29k

    R29k MDL GLaDOS

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  14. nodnar

    nodnar MDL Expert

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    :sofa::sofa::sofa::sofa::sofa::sofa::sofa::sofa::sofa::sofa::sofa:
    really guys, try to say it with flowers for a change...=> => :flowers:
     
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  15. Dave_Ru

    Dave_Ru MDL Novice

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    Ahhhhaaaaaah I love this forum.

    Anyway, I've been thinking, is there a list of countries that haven't done lock downs or pretty much anything ? Tyrannies not needed on the list... I know none.

    -- Countries with few measures--
    - Sweden (some measures but almost nothing compared to other countries)
    - I think Japan ended up advising young people about myocarditis and are not enforcing anything. Foreigners can't get residence there though..
    - India ?? (I think it depends on the region, but the government has allowed usage of ivermecting etc. rate of vaccination pretty low)

    -- Countires that have stopped all or most measures--
    - UK
    - Denmark
    -...
     
  16. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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    Sweden had many times worse outcomes than its neighbours, so compared to comparable countries - s**te! And it's baffling: an allegedly progressive country, based on principles of Social Democracy,. solidarity and empathy,. compassion ==> sacrificed its older and weaker population to the "comfortable lives as before the pandemic" of the young and fit...

    UK had an abysmal outcome and continues to do so - consistently, ever since they abolished the necessary measures... Too little, too late was its response...

    US has an even worse record and so on...

    The data is public, as I keep posting...
     
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  17. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    #3937 Yen, Jan 30, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2022
    It has pretty much to do with untreated (at least here). Firstly there are still many docs not even recognizing it as a sickness. They 'think' it's a psychological issue, an exhaustion. At many long covid cases there is nothing to see on medical imaging as you have posted.

    By saying untreated I also mean they send patients to rehab without medications at all (only physical exercises) or without medications which are used somewhere successfully.

    Our medical health system is responsible for that! And it are the front line doctors helping tons of people! Wake up! 'Some of you guys' (if you mean me by that) are telling that over and over again pointing on those nuisances.
    I illustrate the 'chain' of misfortune.

    Not much money to make with re-purposed drugs, patents expired---->no big pharma behind it to fund studies----->no lobbyism--->no political decisions that govts might fund them----->no EUA or approval from the authorities such like FDA, CDC, NHI, EMA, WHO----->no 'ordinary mainstream doctors' who could rely on those authorities recommendation / EUAs / approvals.

    So what's left? Doctors who really doctor on their own, such as the FLCCC, Dr. Bruce Patterson, Dr. Yo and many more.
    What's the drawback? Many docs do only what is recommended by official authorities, what's working is hardly spread and being recognized. It is EVEN attacked and suppressed by the authorities / big pharma alliance!

    Those authorities are puppets of big pharma and not independent enough to do for what they are actually here, to help the people!
    They rather wait for new drugs for long haul as well while millions are suffering from it.

    Shocking articles sell better, it's common sense.

    Send the LCHS PDF to your brother. Ask him to print it and take to a good doc. He should ask the doc and say that he wants to try that treatment.
    What to lose instead of complaining? BTW: Is he vaccinated?
    I wish him all the best and a full recovery. And I am sorry that it had happened to your brother.

    Sweden did the very best job at the pandemic. It is not true that Sweden had *many times* worse outcomes than its neighbours.They had lost vulnerable people at the very beginning because the virus got into retirement homes.

    You probably find nations which are at one number a bit lower, but Sweden very well compares to EU.
    We have to see the overall picture of the pandemic, the collateral damages which still will unveil the next years.
    All the issues on education of kids, their psychological conditions, their loss which cannot be compensated anymore. The raised suicide rates, their traumas. Their retarded development.

    Sweden avoided most of that by releasing reasonable laws (which are actually recommendations) on masks, few lock-downs only, no or not many school closings.
    Protecting the vulnerable people even stronger after they learned from their first mistake.

    It seems you have no clue what the infection on psyche did destroy due to the measures of the other nations.
    Next years it will turn out as many experts on that field already presume a huge damage on kids, far more than the actual SARS-COV-2 virus did at kids (they are not much affected by the sickness COVID-19 either way).

    To point on Sweden and to say that they have failed is unsustainable!
    To pick out a number that might be higher compared to another nation and to say Sweden has failed is ridiculous.

    The overall condition of the population and what the pandemic has left as any form of physical and psychological harm is best at Sweden. And the fatalities are not significantly different compared to other EU nations.

    In the future it will show up even more and more how much Sweden did it better and you will be out on a limb with your opinion.

    The pandemic is becoming endemic. Kudos to all nations such as Spain and Denmark, also UK, Ireland and France who are now returning to normal...
     
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  18. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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    #3938 gorski, Jan 30, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2022
    @Yen, you are going against data!!!! Convenient loss of memory, eh? Luckily for you, I have an elephant memory and sound reasoning, i.e. a well organised, logical head! :D :p :D

    You're are letting your prejudices, your guru's "ideas" cloud your scientific judgement! What you are saying makes no sense, in the face of all the evidence I put up here, time after time!!! Go back and inform yourself properly!!! Combined Swedish neighbours had several times fewer C-19 victims!!! They decided to go on, with minimal, if any serious, measures - so that young, able and more resistant could go on as before, "be comfortable" (as opposed to be cautious, act in solidarity, deploy their empathy in concrete situations etc.), therefore sacrificing the weak, old and susceptible, period!

    My post from Sep 9, 2020

    "According to the national health agency, Sweden, a nation of 10.2 million people, has seen 4,542 deaths linked to COVID-19, which is far more than its Nordic neighbors and one of the highest per capita death rates in the world. Denmark has had 580 coronavirus deaths, Finland has seen 320 and Norway has had 237, according to a tally by Johns Hopkins University.

    “If we were to encounter the same disease again, knowing precisely what we know about it today, I think we would settle on doing something in between what Sweden did and what the rest of the world has done,” Tegnell, considered the architect of the unique Swedish pandemic approach, told SR."

    OK but @Yen knows better than the architect of Sweden's strategy, right... Go on, Yen, minimise this, relativise this, yet again...

    Even now, after some have followed them, the Swedes are still way "ahead" of their neighbours, i.e. comparable countries, by far: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1104709/coronavirus-deaths-worldwide-per-million-inhabitants/

    Characteristic Confirmed cases (absolute) Cases in last 7 days Confirmed deaths (absolute) Deaths in last 7 days Daily increase (# deaths) Population (in millions) Deaths per million (total) Deaths per million (last 7 days)

    Sweden 1,973,485 231,775 15,674 137 75 10.29 1,523.9 13.32
    Denmark¹ 1,504,724 253,064 3,600 104 21 5.82 618.71 17.87
    Finland 371,135 0 1,724 0 0 5.52 312.3 0
    Norway 690,244 118,589 1,414 26 23 5.35 264.4 4.86

    And again, you are talking rubbish sometimes that is so obvious - I cringe, frankly... Your prejudices, Yen, are taking the mickey (of you, primarily!) right now... Actually, for a while now...

    I read back a bit and look at the gross elementary mistakes you kept making and I had to correct you, since you are obviously biased thanx to your guru's perspective clouding your judgement:
    https://forums.mydigitallife.net/threads/coronavirus-discussion.81224/page-52#post-1619479 ==> thank Heavens you had no power to influence or even make Public Health Policy! We would have had many more millions dead!

    Or here: https://forums.mydigitallife.net/threads/coronavirus-discussion.81224/page-44#post-1615957

    Or this idea of "not being treated for long Covid": my half-brother was treated, is being treated, including being sent to the seaside, re-trained in basic functions and whatnot - it is not going away! So, you are extrapolating and seriously exaggerating something you have seen and read and then trying to pull the wool over all our eyes! It does not work like that, if you are going to call yourself a scientists! Please, do not insult our intelligence: more than 500.000 people in the UK are "not being treated"?!? Sure they are and guess what? Sometimes it's excruciating and it just won't go away!!! Nothing you can write here trying to minimise it to suit your narrative, inspired by C-19 deniers, can change the fact I can see right through your "scientific reasoning"... Especially your really poor stance that - what exactly are you saying? - patients are not being treated because doctors are all bought by the pharmaceutical companies, so they are not treating patients with whatever is at their disposal?!? This is a SHOCKING accusation!!! Based on which data?!?

    Btw, I see in this post (yet again) you left your previous stance (that this was "not a pandemic") behind, which is something I welcome! However, you have changed your stance yet again (this is now 360' turn, since you had your first 180' turn at some point, claiming this was not a pandemic, "based on numbers"), so frankly I worry for you... You keep dancing like a fox on hot coal, one never knows which stance is coming next, at which convenient corner will you take yet another sharp turn...
     
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  19. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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    #3939 gorski, Jan 30, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2022
    Here are some examples... Just to make it quite clear and obvious what happens when one aligns oneself, being a Libertarian, like Koch's, with the worse kind of Nazi-Fascist hard right-wing political forces in EU and the world, as we can see quite clearly, around the globe...

    This is who "we" are working for, when we are talking that rubbish of "let's abolish all the measures and just go back to work", to make them ever more rich, to make ever more profit for them even if it is over other people's dead bodies!!!!

    The numbers did not lie!!!

    Pay attention to @Yen's utterly wrong "assumption" here:

    "Originality" in this could be seen as "dangerous attitude, influenced by prejudiced people":

    As for "X-ray image" being... whatever you said trying to minimise its impact on people... We knew it already:

    And there is a crucial point, at the end: we allow our children to get infected in large numbers - assuming it's not gonna do anything to them, long term...

    I wouldn't want to make such a decision (re. Public Health Policy), then wake up one day and hold my head in my hands, in shame...
     
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  20. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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    One more time, here is the ideological and world-view background for some of the "inspiring" doctors/scientists, fuelling this rubbish "discourse" on C-19:

    https://forums.mydigitallife.net/threads/coronavirus-discussion.81224/page-52#post-1619501

    My detailed answer to Yen's long post I just quoted in the previous post: https://forums.mydigitallife.net/threads/coronavirus-discussion.81224/page-44#post-1615957

    One more detailed rebuttal of mine here: https://forums.mydigitallife.net/threads/coronavirus-discussion.81224/page-44#post-1616042

    What you will see is me being consistent, coherent and logical, basing my statements on the same principles, through and through...

    Yen's, on the other hand, have been all over the floor... Literally: inconsistent, incoherent, illogical and more, sadly...
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...